Quick Grades – Spurs at Bobcats - Nov. 8

[#2!]

The best defense the Spurs have played all year. Especially in the fourth quarter. It wasn't the defense of previous championship years, but much better than their previous games

Unfortunately the Bobcats are the 2nd worst offensive team in the league so far. i did like that their FG% was low though.

[The Truth #6]

The team is getting better. They're trying harder for sure. Hopefully they're not running through all their energy too early in the season. We'll find out.

Gary Neal is a quiet wonder. He's basically been the difference in two victories already. His shooting form is absolutely perfect. Totally impressed by him. I can see the poor man's Mario Ellie comparison now, though it seemed laughable at first.

Blair will come back because he has good instincts. He may always struggle to score in the trees, but he can play way better than this. He did it last year. He needs to redefine himself as a rebounder fast and punish people that way.

Hill...I don't know about him. All his preparation and working out makes me think he's wound really tight, at least considering how he's playing. He's showing zero basketball instincts right now. But isn't this how he's always been? Pop's sales job last year to the media made people think he was doing better than he really was, at least in my opinion. He was doing better last year, but he never showed himself to be a true point guard or anything like that. Basically he was good at shooting the corner three last year. That's what I remember.

[ALVAREZ6]

I disagree strongly about Manu going back to the bench. IMO the bench minutes where Manu is the primary offensive option take more of a toll than starters minutes. When Manu is playing off the the bench he has to go all out for every second on the court, but when he is starting I think he can rest a little more even if he does play more minutes. I completely disagree with anyone saying that he needs to go back to the bench just so you can regulate minutes.

Good point

[crc21209]

Hill has absolutely no confidence and no balls right now..he isn't even looking to attack..when he has the ball and Manu/Tony are on the floor, he's just dribbling the ball out, waiting to hand it off to them every time, unlike last year, where he finally learned to do his own thing..

When the lanes are opening up for him, he isn't taking them..

He can't make his corner 3 anymore..

What the did he do during the off-season?..is ducks going to tell us that he's been on Twitter too much?..

Agreed. He seems very tentative right now...it MIGHT have to do with Neal and Anderson taking up shots now, but I'm not sure...

[daslicer]

To me he isn't a Mario Elie or a Steve Kerr but he reminds me of shooting guard that played for the knicks during the 90's. John Starks is the player that Neal resembles to me. He has the same type of quick release and is streaky like Starks. He also has the same type of tenacity on defense.

[GSH]

The Bobcats came after Hill hard tonight. That was obviously part of LB's plan. They trapped pretty aggressively when he was trying to bring the ball up the court. And to be fair, there were a few times when they did the same thing to Parker and he had some trouble with it, too. Hill was out there with bench players, and they didn't always move to help him like they should have.

The other thing that trap does is put the team further into the shot clock before they start setting up their offense. I remember in Tony's second or third year, an analyst did a good story on how much more successful the Spurs were when they started setting their offense earlier in the shot clock. Sometimes Tony was just bringing the ball up the court without a sense of urgency. But when he got pressured, and the shot clock got shortened, the Spurs offense really faltered.

Hill isn't the first young point guard to run into that kind of strategy. He's going to need to get better about beating the traps. But he's also going to need more help from the younger players who are on the court with him. When you beat the trap, you ought to be able to get a mismatch, and I don't remember that happening tonight. That's not the fault of the guy getting trapped.

Some of you may remember that when teams brought that pressure on Tony in his first couple of seasons, he used to cough the ball up a fair amount. I don't remember Hill turning the ball over as a result of the pressure tonight. Don't get me wrong, he has lots of room to improve. But it's easy to forget that Tony had some growing pains, too.

The thing that bothered me the most was that last 3-point attempt by Hill, with about 2 minutes left in the game. Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought the stroke looked odd. I wish I had it recorded, but it looked to me like he kicked his elbow out and around. The shot sort of looked like it, too. Maybe it was just the camera angle. But if he's developed a hitch, it would explain a lot.

[angelbelow]

Hill and Blair are playing absolutely terrible, good thing is its still very early in the season.

Heavily disagree about Blair.

The difference between the 2 is that Hill doesnt look to be trying and Blair looks to be trying too hard. Id take the latter everytime.

Blair is improving each and every game and the past few he hasnt hurt the spurs either, just hasnt helped them either. First few games of the season he was actually hurting our team.

In the past few games hes had a few nice moments but still not to his potential. Hes still averaging 7 rebounds in 23 minutes - a number that we would expect. While averaging 4.6 points is pretty low, I wouldnt expect anything too high if hes playing next to TD and with RJ, Manu and Parker.

[Phenomanul]

I'm tellin' yall that Neal is Fisher-Lite

[Ice009]

Good point

Yep. I think starter minutes are better. I'm not saying to keep playing him this much, but I do think the minutes in the starting lineup don't take as much of a toll.

[analyzed]

Only difference is the latter was getting paid the max $ 17 M , while the former is still under his rookie contract. big difference if you ask me

Hill is RJ of last year. Trade anyone?

[DespЏrado]

To me he isn't a Mario Elie or a Steve Kerr but he reminds me of shooting guard that played for the knicks during the 90's. John Starks is the player that Neal resembles to me. He has the same type of quick release and is streaky like Starks. He also has the same type of tenacity on defense.

Starks is the best comparison I've heard so far...

[elbamba]

Hill just looks like he has no confidence right now. He needs to quit shooting jumpers and just worry about taking the ball to the basket in the next game.

His dribbling has suffered as well. Last year he was the most improved player in my opinion. Now, he looks like he is trying to hard. He must let the game come to him and have fun.

[TheSullyMonster]

At this rate he should be rounding into form by game 70.....

That's fine, so long as he's good to go for games 83 through 98(-110, as needed).

[Obstructed_View]

At this point last year the Spurs were 3-3 and looked more like this season's Cowboys than this season's Spurs. There's a lot of time for guys like Hill, Splitter and Blair to get a rhythm and they should end up with some wiggle room in case someone gets injured due to the strong start and surprising depth.

[Leonard Curse]

Tiago needs to get in game shape and move into the starting role at Center.

first guy besides me to say this, we need to get that ugly learning period out of the way with tiago so we can move on!

[Cessation]

i disagree strongly about manu going back to the bench. Imo the bench minutes where manu is the primary offensive option take more of a toll than starters minutes. When manu is playing off the the bench he has to go all out for every second on the court, but when he is starting i think he can rest a little more even if he does play more minutes. I completely disagree with anyone saying that he needs to go back to the bench just so you can regulate minutes.

+1

[BillMc]

Richard Jefferson deserves better than a B-, maybe not by much, but a B at least. The biggest problem many people had with Richard last season was that he had zero impact on games in which he wasn't scoring. His effort was always better when he was getting touches/points.

Tonight he put up season highs for rebounding and assists despite having his worst shooting night of the season. That's effort.

This x1000.

It was so good to see RJ contribute when his shot wasn't falling. Last year, when he didn't score he didn't do anything. Though this was a "bad" game for him in terms of points, it was very promising in terms of RJ as a more complete player and a more engaged player.

[Rick Von Braun]

I disagree strongly about Manu going back to the bench. IMO the bench minutes where Manu is the primary offensive option take more of a toll than starters minutes. When Manu is playing off the the bench he has to go all out for every second on the court, but when he is starting I think he can rest a little more even if he does play more minutes. I completely disagree with anyone saying that he needs to go back to the bench just so you can regulate minutes.

I have been saying this for 5 years since Manu was moved to the bench in favor of the psychologically fragile Hedo. For the same amount of minutes played, it takes a much bigger toll on Manu's body to play off the bench.

I'll use a very simple example (this is just a simple example to show the point, I am not arguing for any specific pattern). For the first half of a basketball game (24 minutes), let's use the following two rotation patterns (showing just playing time) that use the same number of minutes total (16 minutes in this example).

Starter:
1st Q: 12:00 - 04:00
2nd Q: 08:00 - 00:00

This gives you a pattern of 8 minutes playing time, 8 minutes of rest, 8 minutes of playing time for a total of 16 minutes playing time.

Bench:
1st Q: 06:00 - 00:00
2nd Q: 12:00 - 10:00
2nd Q: 08:00 - 00:00

This gives you a pattern of 8 minutes playing time (6 in the 1st Q + 2 at the beginning of the 2nd Q), 2 minutes of rest (2nd Q 10:00 to 08:00), 8 minutes of playing time for a total of 16 minutes playing time.

Note that I have ignored the break between quarters and teams' timeouts for the sake of simplicity in the explanation.

Given the two usage patterns above, which of the two you believe is better to maximize rest?

If you are not convinced, let me give you a specific situation to further clarify the point. If you are asked to run the longest distance you can, and you have to following two options:
a) 8 minutes running, 8 minutes resting, 8 minutes running
b) 8 minutes running, 2 minutes resting, 8 minutes running

For a total of 16 minutes running time. Do you think you can run a longer distance using (a) or (b) pattern? Which one you would pick?

From the pure physical/endurance point of view, the critical point here is that by coming off the bench you lose the initial minutes of the 1st Q that you are not playing, BUT you are not resting either. Players have at least 24 hrs of resting before the game (at least in a back-to-back, they usually have 48, 72 or 96 hours), so resting 24 hrs or 24 hrs + 6 minutes makes no difference for them. However, the resting time in between playing periods during the game is critical.

One could also argue that having to lead the offense with the 2nd group and being the primary focus of the defense during that time (which it is important but a bit more difficult to measure quan atively), it also takes a larger toll on the body, since you have to constantly create for others and you have less quality players to play with you. This may be somehow compensated by the less quality of opposing players, but the rotation patterns of different teams usually do not align perfectly except under very specific cir stances for certain players (like a defensive specialist just to guard a specific player). This is usually clearly seen when you calculate adjusted +/- stats, but this is not the point.

If the ultimate goal is to maximize rest, then it is absolutely clear that for the same amount of minutes played, it takes a much bigger toll on Manu's body to play off the bench.

[alchemist]

Only caught the 2nd half, but Hill looked atrocious trying to run the offense.

when hasn't this been the case?

[Brazil]

I would give RJ a B+. We all knew that his stellar shooting wouldn't last forever, I was expecting him to step up in the rebounding area, he did just that last night with some big contested rebounds !

Dice deserves a lot of applause so far, he is playing above my expectations especially considering this is the beginning of the season.

[smeagol]

spurs want manu to play more minutes this year
I think it is foolish we shall see

suns announcers said so when spurs played suns

another 11 three point attempts for manu the gunner

Anything else to criticize about Manu, you dork?

[DBMethos]

Yeah, Dice is really in midseason form already.

[smeagol]

I have been saying this for 5 years since Manu was moved to the bench in favor of the psychologically fragile Hedo. For the same amount of minutes played, it takes a much bigger toll on Manu's body to play off the bench.

I'll use a very simple example (this is just a simple example to show the point, I am not arguing for any specific pattern). For the first half of a basketball game (24 minutes), let's use the following two rotation patterns (showing just playing time) that use the same number of minutes total (16 minutes in this example).

Starter:
1st Q: 12:00 - 04:00
2nd Q: 08:00 - 00:00

This gives you a pattern of 8 minutes playing time, 8 minutes of rest, 8 minutes of playing time for a total of 16 minutes playing time.

Bench:
1st Q: 06:00 - 00:00
2nd Q: 12:00 - 10:00
2nd Q: 08:00 - 00:00

This gives you a pattern of 8 minutes playing time (6 in the 1st Q + 2 at the beginning of the 2nd Q), 2 minutes of rest (2nd Q 10:00 to 08:00), 8 minutes of playing time for a total of 16 minutes playing time.

Note that I have ignored the break between quarters and teams' timeouts for the sake of simplicity in the explanation.

Given the two usage patterns above, which of the two you believe is better to maximize rest?

If you are not convinced, let me give you a specific situation to further clarify the point. If you are asked to run the longest distance you can, and you have to following two options:
a) 8 minutes running, 8 minutes resting, 8 minutes running
b) 8 minutes running, 2 minutes resting, 8 minutes running

For a total of 16 minutes running time. Do you think you can run a longer distance using (a) or (b) pattern? Which one you would pick?

From the pure physical/endurance point of view, the critical point here is that by coming off the bench you lose the initial minutes of the 1st Q that you are not playing, BUT you are not resting either. Players have at least 24 hrs of resting before the game (at least in a back-to-back, they usually have 48, 72 or 96 hours), so resting 24 hrs or 24 hrs + 6 minutes makes no difference for them. However, the resting time in between playing periods during the game is critical.

One could also argue that having to lead the offense with the 2nd group and being the primary focus of the defense during that time (which it is important but a bit more difficult to measure quan atively), it also takes a larger toll on the body, since you have to constantly create for others and you have less quality players to play with you. This may be somehow compensated by the less quality of opposing players, but the rotation patterns of different teams usually do not align perfectly except under very specific cir stances for certain players (like a defensive specialist just to guard a specific player). This is usually clearly seen when you calculate adjusted +/- stats, but this is not the point.

If the ultimate goal is to maximize rest, then it is absolutely clear that for the same amount of minutes played, it takes a much bigger toll on Manu's body to play off the bench.

RVB sighting!

[smeagol]

...

[Brazil]

...

well thats an interesting take