DWill showing signs

[Killakobe81]

BTW, the system argument can work both ways..

Williams' off-ball game consists mainly of catching/shooting off of screens, which he does very well, one of the best in the NBA, I'll give him that..he definitely has that advantage over CP3..

However, you can't really say that Paul can't play off the ball, because he never does..I can argue that you can't really use that against Paul, because he has never played for even a decent offensive coach..

Byron Scott's Nets teams were always below average/bad offensive teams(they ranked 17th, 18th, 24th, 25th in offense)..he has no history of being able to coach offensive teams..

Paul is a more efficient shooter than Williams, despite the fact that Paul has around 15% of his shots assisted, which is just a ridiculous number(one of the lowest in the NBA, if not THE lowest), compared to around 50% for Williams..pretty crazy..

The post-up argument is silly too..Deron Williams' post-up offense only took up 4% of his overall plays last year..is 4% of your shots really relevant?..he obviously has the advantage there, but how is it relevant?..


Saying Deron is better than Paul in the halfcourt is just too much..

So far this year(and you can say this for any other year, too), Chris Paul is rated as the #1 pick and roll player in the NBA..his team scores on 59% of the p&r plays he is involved in..

Williams is nice too, but his isolation and p&r numbers aren't that close to Paul's so far this season..

Another thing..the Jazz and Hornets are actually both tied for 23rd so far this season in fast break points, so it's not like one team is running and getting easier points than the other..

Good post.

I am NOT as strogly convinced (as i was) Dwill is better ... even though i think Dwill would be a better fit for the Jazz or the Lakers offensive system.
My original beef with this debate is that peole act as though he is "light years" better when I think it is close, and reasonable people could argue a strong case for either PG.

I do disagree with one point harlem makes above with his stats, about post offese. just because Post-ups is only 4% of william's offense does not make that insignificant. The fact HE CAN punish a small guard such as Aaron Brooks or Jameer Nelson forces a team to adjust. Even if he only scores 4% of his offense he can also generate good offense by taking advantage of the mis-match by just making a couple baskets in a game versus a smaller opponent.that forces a team to double or "cross-match" that can have a huge impact on a game but even more importantly a playoff series. Forcing your opponent to change their strategy is huge.
That is my problem with stats ...they can always be manipulated to make a case for, or against an argument.

again i am starting to re-evaluate my stance on who is better. I think a playoff matchup would tell me a great deal.

Remember one of the underlying themes of The wire ...they "juke the stats"

The Murder rates
The Murder clearance rates
The no child left behind state test scores

I could go on but stats in a va without context or without exhaustive research is just some numbers that someone else tells you are important.

[LkrFan]

You aren't familiar with LkrFan's arguments, are you?..

He uses so many cliches and general statements, and then when you prove him wrong(which is always), he somehow spins it into something re ed, possibly in an attempt to confuse and make you forget about what you were talking about(although he's not this clever, tbh)..

Whatever dude. I guarantee you that if they both meet in the playoffs, CP is going fishing (barring any injuries to either ball club).

Fact is CP dominates the ball. Too much. You can game plan for players like that. Players like that usually don't go too far in the playoffs (i.e. the Cavs won more games in the regular season two years in a row yet fizzled in the playoffs). It's no secret that a multifaceted offense like the ones ran in LA and Utah have stood the test of time. The Jazz has been running that offense since 1984 or so with Stockton and Malone. PJ has run the triangle since around 1989 or so. Gimmick teams like Phoenix, Hornets, Golden State and now the Miami Hype won't do too much when it is all said and done. Sure they will make SportsCenter highlights but that won't cut it in the playoffs.

There is a reason why LeHype gets to the race (playoffs) but doesn't cross the finish line (win a ring). Ditto for Nash, _irk, and CP.

Anyway, I won't win too many arguments for DWill on this board. There is an incredible bias against him. Just for fun, let's imagine them switching roles. If DWill is only 0.2 apg from doing the same statistical damage as CP in an offense that doesn't have him dominating the ball for 85% or more, imagine him in the same offense as CP. It's funny that one PG has to dominate the ball to get his stats. The other does not and has gone further in the playoffs. One plays in a system that and still gets his assists while having all of his teammates be a threat. Which one is easier to game plan for? Even you know the answer to that one.

[BUMP]

Whatever dude. I guarantee you that if they both meet in the playoffs, CP is going fishing (barring any injuries to either ball club).

Fact is CP dominates the ball. Too much. You can game plan for players like that. Players like that usually don't go too far in the playoffs (i.e. the Cavs won more games in the regular season two years in a row yet fizzled in the playoffs). It's no secret that a multifaceted offense like the ones ran in LA and Utah have stood the test of time. The Jazz has been running that offense since 1984 or so with Stockton and Malone. PJ has run the triangle since around 1989 or so. Gimmick teams like Phoenix, Hornets, Golden State and now the Miami Hype won't do too much when it is all said and done. Sure they will make SportsCenter highlights but that won't cut it in the playoffs.

There is a reason why LeHype gets to the race (playoffs) but doesn't cross the finish line (win a ring). Ditto for Nash, _irk, and CP.

Anyway, I won't win too many arguments for DWill on this board. There is an incredible bias against him. Just for fun, let's imagine them switching roles. If DWill is only 0.2 apg from doing the same statistical damage as CP in an offense that doesn't have him dominating the ball for 85% or more, imagine him in the same offense as CP. It's funny that one PG has to dominate the ball to get his stats. The other does not and has gone further in the playoffs. One plays in a system that and still gets his assists while having all of his teammates be a threat. Which one is easier to game plan for? Even you know the answer to that one.

[LkrFan]

I'm waiting to see a point.

They played 18 times. DWill won 14 of them. It's relevant.

So? Chris Paul has way higher asst%. And lol at you using only this season.

Again, you can game plan for that. Take the ball out of his hands with a hard double team/trap, who on the Hornets will put players in position to score? Bayless the chucker?

You're using one game as proof? This is too funny. And he wasn't that efficient anyway.

I used the most recent games he played. On two nights in a row against eastern powerhouse teams, he lead his teams to consecutive impressive come from behind victories. On the road no less. Not in the comfortable confines of their home gym.

No, it's just that you claimed that Williams is a better rebounder--which is wrong. Period.

Point taken. CP is Dennis Rodman on the boards.

1.) He doesn't dominate anything. He barely plays better in head-to-head matchups.
2.) Head-to-head doesn't mean .

DWill doesn't wow you. He just gets the job done. Period. Head to head doesn't mean much to you? What if these matchups occurred in the playoffs? Would they matter then? I don't see anything in CP's leadership abilities to make me think if they met in the playoffs the results would be any different.

Who said that Chris Paul can't play in a system? Chris may dominate the ball, but he is more efficient even though he holds on to it longer.

Hollinger is that you? Get that PER out of here. I can see with my own eyes that DWill is a better PG. He doesn't need that flashy fastbreak to do his job.

You just resorted to using every single cliche possible. You claimed that head-to-head means something (even though I have never gotten a reason why 4 games in a season should count more than the other 78). You claimed that Deron Williams is a better rebounder, which has never been true. You claim that he can post up, which doesn't mean when Paul is the more efficient scorer--regardless of your one game sample size.

Forget one game sample size. I've seen DWill up close and personal in a few playoff matches when they played the Lakers. We just have more talent than them and were basically a better team. I tell you what, DWill wasn't the reason why they lost. By the way, when was the last time CP was in the playoffs? I haven't looked it up but I don't think DWill has ever not been in the playoffs.

EDIT: Oh, you forgot to claim that "Deron is a better shooter" and "Deron is bigger and therefore a better defender."

No, I won't claim that. We've all seen that DWill can carry a team if need be by scoring. Speaking of efficiency, Emeka leads the league in FG%. Is he better than Pau Gasol - who does not? Emeka shoots better than everybody so far. He must be the best big in the league. Again, get that PER out of here. You'll be a better fan without that Hollinger BSPN in your life. Some stats are lies. Damn lies.

[LkrFan]

Did I say something bad about your beloved _irk? My bad.

[Girasuck]

Jesus ing Christ!!! You Hornets fans are all pieces of . Seriously. So some fans and experts think Deron is the best PG. GET THE OVER IT ALREADY! Big ing deal. Stop this ing whining in every goddamn Deron thread.

!!

[redzero]

They played 18 times. DWill won 14 of them. It's relevant.

How?

Again, you can game plan for that. Take the ball out of his hands with a hard double team/trap, who on the Hornets will put players in position to score? Bayless the chucker?

Belinelli, Green, Thornton, and Bayless can score.

I used the most recent games he played. On two nights in a row against eastern powerhouse teams, he lead his teams to consecutive impressive come from behind victories. On the road no less. Not in the comfortable confines of their home gym.

He didn't lead his team to against the Heat. Millsap put the ball in the bucket, and a few of those passes were bad.

Point taken. CP is Dennis Rodman on the boards.

And you trying to put words in my mouth doesn't change the fact that you were wrong about Deron being a better rebounder.

DWill doesn't wow you. He just gets the job done. Period. Head to head doesn't mean much to you? What if these matchups occurred in the playoffs? Would they matter then? I don't see anything in CP's leadership abilities to make me think if they met in the playoffs the results would be any different.

They never played each other in the playoffs, so your point is completely irrelevant.

Hollinger is that you? Get that PER out of here. I can see with my own eyes that DWill is a better PG. He doesn't need that flashy fastbreak to do his job.

So, the better point guard shoots worse, passes worse, turns the ball over more, scores less efficiently, ect. over his career?

Forget one game sample size. I've seen DWill up close and personal in a few playoff matches when they played the Lakers. We just have more talent than them and were basically a better team. I tell you what, DWill wasn't the reason why they lost. By the way, when was the last time CP was in the playoffs? I haven't looked it up but I don't think DWill has ever not been in the playoffs.

Did I blame Deron for losing against the Lakers? And Chris Paul was last in the playoffs in 09, so you have a very short memory.

No, I won't claim that. We've all seen that DWill can carry a team if need be by scoring. Speaking of efficiency, Emeka leads the league in FG%. Is he better than Pau Gasol - who does not? Emeka shoots better than everybody so far. He must be the best big in the league. Again, get that PER out of here. You'll be a better fan without that Hollinger BSPN in your life. Some stats are lies. Damn lies.

lol

You have to make generalizations based off a few games to make a point.

Try using each player's career--not a single game, head-to-head matchups, or a few games in a season that just started--to backup your claims, because as it stands, you can't make a point to save your life.

[Lakers2009champs]

Has anyone actually seen the stats from games between CP3 and DWILL LOL???

I'm not even hornets fan but Chris Paul is the BEST PG in the league. Deron is nice, I'll take either one over Fisher.

[LkrFan]

How?

Damn, do I have to spell it out? LOL

Belinelli, Green, Thornton, and Bayless can score.

That wasn't the question. The question was if the ball is taken out of the hands of CP, who will put the other players in position to score - not who can score.

He didn't lead his team to against the Heat. Millsap put the ball in the bucket, and a few of those passes were bad.

So I guess they would have won without DWill. Gotcha.

And you trying to put words in my mouth doesn't change the fact that you were wrong about Deron being a better rebounder.

When I say "point taken" that's conceding. Then I exaggerated for effect. It worked.

They never played each other in the playoffs, so your point is completely irrelevant.

True, but I'm going on record as saying if and when they do, CP will be fishing.

So, the better point guard shoots worse, passes worse, turns the ball over more, scores less efficiently, ect. over his career?

You want career stats? Here you go:

DWill v CP
41-41 v 38-44
51-31 v 39-43
54-28 v 56-26
48-34 v 49-33
53-29 v 37-45

• Totals 247 wins for DWill in the regular season v 163 losses
• Totals 219 wins for CP in the regular season v 191 losses
• DWill’s playoff resume’ – WCF once, WC Semifinals twice, 1st round fodder once, missed playoffs once
• CP’s playoff resume’ – WC Semifinals once, 1st round fodder once, missed playoffs 3 times

Did I blame Deron for losing against the Lakers? And Chris Paul was last in the playoffs in 09, so you have a very short memory. lol

No, you didn't blame him. I chose to give him props for being a warrior in the playoffs.

You have to make generalizations based off a few games to make a point.

Again, I'm going off recent production. If it were game 75 I'd do the same thing then too.

Try using each player's career--not a single game, head-to-head matchups, or a few games in a season that just started--to backup your claims, because as it stands, you can't make a point to save your life.

See above. DWill has taken his teams further in the playoffs and won more RS games. That means he is not only a better winner but also a better leader than CP. That is it and that is all.

[redzero]

Damn, do I have to spell it out? LOL

Yes.

That wasn't the question. The question was if the ball is taken out of the hands of CP, who will put the other players in position to score - not who can score.

Again, they are capable of doing it themselves.

So I guess they would have won without DWill. Gotcha.

Didn't make that claim. You have hard time reading plain English.

When I say "point taken" that's conceding. Then I exaggerated for effect. It worked.

No, you're trying to change the subject.

True, but I'm going on record as saying if and when they do, CP will be fishing.

Which is completely meaningless.

You want career stats? Here you go:

DWill v CP
41-41 v 38-44
51-31 v 39-43
54-28 v 56-26
48-34 v 49-33
53-29 v 37-45

• Totals 247 wins for DWill in the regular season v 163 losses
• Totals 219 wins for CP in the regular season v 191 losses
• DWill’s playoff resume’ – WCF once, WC Semifinals twice, 1st round fodder once, missed playoffs once
• CP’s playoff resume’ – WC Semifinals once, 1st round fodder once, missed playoffs 3 times

Those aren't career stats.

No, you didn't blame him. I chose to give him props for being a warrior in the playoffs.

If his team loses, what does it matter? You obviously don't care about individual performances because you skipped over each player's stats and went straight to team records.

Again, I'm going off recent production. If it were game 75 I'd do the same thing then too.

That's stupid.

See above. DWill has taken his teams further in the playoffs and won more RS games. That means he is not only a better winner but also a better leader than CP. That is it and that is all.

Since Deron lucked out and played the Warriors in the second round, he's a better leader than Chris.

Also, Fisher > every other point guard, because he has rings.

[LkrFan]

Yes.

DWill has shown the ability to beat CP's teams at a 78% clip (14/18 chances). The likelihood that it changes should they meet in the playoffs isn't so good.

Again, they are capable of doing it themselves.

Capable is one thing. The likelihood of it happening is another. They simply don't do it on a regular enough basis to be counted upon to do it in the playoffs when the stakes are higher.

Didn't make that claim. You have hard time reading plain English.

Well you basically said that Millsap did it without the need of having DWill (or a system that makes every body a threat) set him up. Notice how he still did damage in the OT with DWill on the sideline watching. Make no mistake, they don't even get to that point if DWill didn't play.

No, you're trying to change the subject.

No, just messing with you. It worked because you got pissed.

Which is completely meaningless.

So if they meet in the playoffs and the Jazz win, it's meaningless? Ok.

Those aren't career stats.

Those are the identical records of their respective teams since both were drafted. How are these not their career stats?

If his team loses, what does it matter? You obviously don't care about individual performances because you skipped over each player's stats and went straight to team records.

They both are the leaders of their respective teams. One (DWill ) just did a better job at notching Ws for his team.

That's stupid.

You are en led to your opinion.

Since Deron lucked out and played the Warriors in the second round, he's a better leader than Chris.

DWill also lucked out and notched more regular season wins than CP. And he just so happened to take his teams further in the playoffs than CP. You play who is on your schedule. It's not DWill's fault that his team did better than CP's meaning he played a team that wasn't as good. Then again, maybe it was DWill's fault... on second thought.

Also, Fisher > every other point guard, because he has rings.

That's just silly. No arguments from me on that one though.

[redzero]

DWill has shown the ability to beat CP's teams at a 78% clip (14/18 chances). The likelihood that it changes should they meet in the playoffs isn't so good.

Wrong, the Utah Jazz have consistently shown that they have a matchup advantage against the Hornets. There's more than one player on a team, you know.

Capable is one thing. The likelihood of it happening is another. They simply don't do it on a regular enough basis to be counted upon to do it in the playoffs when the stakes are higher.

Really? Based on what? I doubt you have even seen Marcus Thornton play, because he doesn't need Paul to help him score. Bayless did well for himself in Portland last season, and Green can shoot as well.

Well you basically said that Millsap did it without the need of having DWill (or a system that makes every body a threat) set him up. Notice how he still did damage in the OT with DWill on the sideline watching. Make no mistake, they don't even get to that point if DWill didn't play.

Wrong, learn how to read. You claimed that Deron lead the Jazz to a win, which wasn't the case. I didn't say that he didn't do anything or that he was a nonfactor.

No, just messing with you. It worked because you got pissed.

Okay, it just made you look like you have no idea what you're talking about, but if you say so.

So if they meet in the playoffs and the Jazz win, it's meaningless? Ok.

Again, learn how to read. Your prediction is meaningless. No one has any way of knowing if Paul and Williams will ever face each other in the playoffs, so to make that claim is pointless.

Those are the identical records of their respective teams since both were drafted. How are these not their career stats?

That's not their career stats.

Do you want me to pull up Rondo's win/loss record to prove that he's better than Williams and Paul?

Show their stats--not team stats.

They both are the leaders of their respective teams. One (DWill ) just did a better job at notching Ws for his team.

Yeah, by playing worse, apparently.

DWill also lucked out and notched more regular season wins than CP. And he just so happened to take his teams further in the playoffs than CP. You play who is on your schedule. It's not DWill's fault that his team did better than CP's meaning he played a team that wasn't as good. Then again, maybe it was DWill's fault... on second thought.

Now you're being incoherent.

That's just silly. No arguments from me on that one though.

No, it is not silly. All you have brought up is team records to support your claim, and Derek Fisher not only has a better overall record, he beat Williams head-to-head (which seems to be one of the few things you care about), he gotten further in the playoffs, and he has multiple rings.

[Purch]

Jesus ing Christ!!! You Hornets fans are all pieces of . Seriously. So some fans and experts think Deron is the best PG. GET THE OVER IT ALREADY! Big ing deal. Stop this ing whining in every goddamn Deron thread.

!!

That's the annoying apart about it. They make 4 Chris Paul threads every time he plays a game. But once one is made about D-Will they come in and spam it with their hate.

It's the same way Bulls fans go out of their way to hate on Rondo.

[redzero]

That's the annoying apart about it. They make 4 Chris Paul threads every time he plays a game. But once one is made about D-Will they come in and spam it with their hate.

It's the same way Bulls fans go out of their way to hate on Rondo.

I'm not hating on Deron. I haven't even made a Chris Paul thread in a while.

[Chieflion]

And calling Deron Williams the 2nd best PG in the league isn't hating, tbh.

[Purch]

And calling Deron Williams the 2nd best PG in the league isn't hating, tbh.

I didn't say it was.

Spending half the thread talking about why you thinK Paul is better then him in an appreciation thread and every D-Willl thread is imo.

[Chieflion]

I didn't say it was.

Spending half the thread talking about why you thinK Paul is better then him in an appreciation thread and every D-Willl thread is imo.

Deal with it. When someone mentions Deron Williams, someone will bring up Chris Paul. When the thread starts with "Hands down #2 PG in the league", you know it will turn into a comparison thread because he is ranking someone.

[redzero]

Spending half the thread talking about why you thinK Paul is better then him in an appreciation thread and every D-Willl thread is imo.

You know that happens both ways. When was the last time there has been a thread about Williams in which Paul wasn't brought up or vice versa? That is bound to happen in nba forums.

[LkrFan]

Wrong, the Utah Jazz have consistently shown that they have a matchup advantage against the Hornets. There's more than one player on a team, you know.

That's why I like teams that aren't overly reliant upon a ball dominant PG. It makes it hard for you to key in on one guy. Besides, they are the leaders of their respective teams. They are extensions of their coaches on the floor. When their teams win they get the props, when they lose they get the majority of the blame. It comes with the territory.

Really? Based on what? I doubt you have even seen Marcus Thornton play, because he doesn't need Paul to help him score. Bayless did well for himself in Portland last season, and Green can shoot as well.

I don’t need to see Thornton play. I’m not doubting he could score. I’m doubting he couldn’t be a playmaker like CP is. That being said, you take out CP, you increase the likelihood of defeating the Hornets. There are tons of players that can score, but can they make others better?

Wrong, learn how to read. You claimed that Deron lead the Jazz to a win, which wasn't the case. I didn't say that he didn't do anything or that he was a nonfactor.

DWill did his thing until he fouled out. They don’t get into the position they were in without his contributions.

Okay, it just made you look like you have no idea what you're talking about, but if you say so.

That's right, bow down.

Again, learn how to read. Your prediction is meaningless. No one has any way of knowing if Paul and Williams will ever face each other in the playoffs, so to make that claim is pointless.

That's not their career stats.
Do you want me to pull up Rondo's win/loss record to prove that he's better than Williams and Paul?
Show their stats--not team stats.

Stats by themselves don’t mean . Case in point, Mark Price has a higher FT% and 3pt FG% than Magic Johnson. Is he a better PG than Magic? John Stockton has more assists than him. Who would you take if given the chance? Magic probably has more turnovers than either of those two because of his style of play, yet he was a winner that was in the Finals 9 times. Winning it all 5 times. People don't go into this guy had this stat or that per se. They are measured mainly by winning. DWill is a winner in his own right. Stats be damned.

Yeah, by playing worse, apparently.

No by leading. Stats isn’t everything you know. It doesn’t tell the whole story.

Now you're being incoherent.

You are the one saying he lucked out in playing the Warriors. I stated that DWill put his team into a position to play a lesser foe in the playoffs (that’s the perk of making your team better and winning more games).

No, it is not silly. All you have brought up is team records to support your claim, and Derek Fisher not only has a better overall record, he beat Williams head-to-head (which seems to be one of the few things you care about), he gotten further in the playoffs, and he has multiple rings.

Ah, gotcha. Point taken. There is hope for you after all.

[O.J Mayo]

Lkr is so stupid. There is really no need for redzero to respond to such crap tbh.

Wow, take out the opposing star player and they become easier to beat. Thanks Captain Obvious Dumb .

[Giuseppe]

OJ, on the rag, per usual.

[rayjayjohnson]

deron
paul
rose
rondo
nash

that how it is, son.

[LkrFan]

Lkr is so stupid. There is really no need for redzero to respond to such crap tbh.

Wow, take out the opposing star player and they become easier to beat. Thanks Captain Obvious Dumb .

You just proved my point idiot. I just said that if you take out CP, they are ed. It's easy to that do to a team that relies so heavily on one player.

On teams that run systems, like LA and Utah, it's hard to do that. Case in point, people like to harp on Kobe's 6/24 in game 7. Technically that is "taking out the superstar" because he shot 25%. Because the Lakers run a system, he was able to do other things to get it done.

That doesn't hold true on other teams. Let someone like LeHype shoot 6/24 and his team is ed with no vaseline. Teams that run systems are less likely to have all of their options taken out - which leads to defeat. But hey, what do I know.

[rayjayjohnson]

You just proved my point idiot. I just said that if you take out CP, they are ed. It's easy to that do to a team that relies so heavily on one player.

On teams that run systems, like LA and Utah, it's hard to do that. Case in point, people like to harp on Kobe's 6/24 in game 7. Technically that is "taking out the superstar" because he shot 25%. Because the Lakers run a system, he was able to do other things to get it done.

That doesn't hold true on other teams. Let someone like LeHype shoot 6/24 and his team is ed with no vaseline. Teams that run systems are less likely to have all of their options taken out - which leads to defeat. But hey, what do I know.

i agree with most of that, but if lebron goes 6 from 24 he at least had wade to pick up the slack, or even bosh if he decides to be worth the money for 48 minutes...

[redzero]

That's why I like teams that aren't overly reliant upon a ball dominant PG. It makes it hard for you to key in on one guy. Besides, they are the leaders of their respective teams. They are extensions of their coaches on the floor. When their teams win they get the props, when they lose they get the majority of the blame. It comes with the territory.

The Jazz would still suffer if D-Will wasn't getting his assists.

I don’t need to see Thornton play. I’m not doubting he could score. I’m doubting he couldn’t be a playmaker like CP is. That being said, you take out CP, you increase the likelihood of defeating the Hornets. There are tons of players that can score, but can they make others better?

Hold on, you're saying that a team would be more likely to lose without its best player? That's a mind blowing observation right there. You should write a book about it. Maybe you should become an assistant coach, because the world needs to know this.

DWill did his thing until he fouled out. They don’t get into the position they were in without his contributions.

Okay, I guess you are completely ignoring my what I type, because I stated that Deron didn't lead his team to victory, not that he didn't contribute to the victory.

Stats by themselves don’t mean . Case in point, Mark Price has a higher FT% and 3pt FG% than Magic Johnson. Is he a better PG than Magic?

That's an absolutely terrible example. Who uses solely FT% and 3pt FG% to determine how good a point guard is?

John Stockton has more assists than him. Who would you take if given the chance? Magic probably has more turnovers than either of those two because of his style of play, yet he was a winner that was in the Finals 9 times. Winning it all 5.

Magic's overall game was better--just like Chris Paul's overall game is better.

DWill is a winner in his own right. Stats be damned.

Based on?

No by leading. Stats isn’t everything you know. It doesn’t tell the whole story.

Okay, the best way to tell how good a player is would be through team success? That means Jameer Nelson, Steve Nash and Rajon Rondo are better than Deron, right?

You are the one saying he lucked out in playing the Warriors. I stated that DWill put his team into a position to play a lesser foe in the playoffs (that’s the perk of making your team better and winning more games).

No, he did not. In case you forgot, the Mavericks were upset by the Warriors in the first round. Deron didn't do to make sure that happened. That was out of his control. He got his team in the position to potentially play the first seed--which was obviously not a lesser foe.

Ah, gotcha. Point taken. There is hope for you after all.

Obviously, you don't get me judging from the rest of your post.

You make idiotic comparisons. You use small sample sizes. You use team success to determine how good a player is in some cases but not others. You make idiotic comparisons. You ignore stats completely. You downplay the contributions of Paul Millsap's against Miami. You make idiotic comparisons.

I don't even know why I'm bothering to respond.