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  1. #101
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    They actually have enough data points to double-check the math.

    50bn given to company

    minus

    GM has already paid or agreed to pay back $9.5 billion
    minus

    It stands to make $13.6 billion if bankers exercise options for up to 412 million shares, as planned.
    50-9.5-13.6= 26.9bn

    divided by

    The government would still have about 500 million shares
    26.9/.5= $53.8 per share is breakeven point for cash doled out.

    Doesn't seem fuzzy to me. The reporter did round down though.

    Still have to check on the tax implications, because explicit, specific tax breaks given to company would have to be considered as part of the "bailout total".

  2. #102
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Thanks to the massive auto industry bailout, the government currently holds a total of 304 million shares of common stock and $2.1 billion in preferred stock in the automaker.
    Data does not jive.

    If the government held 304M shares then, but suddenly, per the most recent information, holds 500M after SELLING 348M shares, that indicates they split the stock in some manner during the run-up to the IPO.

    Seems like 53.7 per share is the magic number.

    It is at 34 and change when I last checked, so reaching that is not out of the ballpark.

    We have recovered almost half of the cash bailout now, and stand to get at least 2/3 of what is left, assuming the price stagnates for years.

    Convert the fractions...
    3/6 + 2/6 = 5/6
    Ending cost to the taxpayer of the whole shebang assuming this conservative payback is a bit over 8bn.

    The President's budget for 2010 totals $3.55 trillion
    .008/3.55 or approximatly two tenths of one percent of the 2010 Federal Budget.

    Given that perspective, I think the hand-wringing is a *wee* bit overblown. We have other things to worry about.

  3. #103
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    Well, for sure they lost 9 billion on the stock they sold today. And thats supposed to be a "good" thing.

  4. #104
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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  5. #105
    Believe.
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    You know what car company is doing great without a bailout? Delorean!

    http://www.delorean.com/

  6. #106
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    You know what car company is doing great without a bailout? Delorean!

    http://www.delorean.com/
    , Delorean STARTED with a bailout.

  7. #107
    Pimp Marcus Bryant's Avatar
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    GM buys politicians.

    Politicians buy GM.

    Either way, Americans get ed.

  8. #108
    Veteran
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    foxnews' in oil companies pockets again

    http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2010/...electric-cars/

    I just have to laugh at this .

  9. #109
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    foxnews' in oil companies pockets again

    http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2010/...electric-cars/

    I just have to laugh at this .

    Did you even read the article? It's very pro-electric.

  10. #110
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    GM buys politicians.

    Politicians buy GM.

    Either way, Americans get ed.
    We have recovered almost half of the cash bailout now, and stand to get at least 2/3 of what is left, assuming the price stagnates for years.

    Convert the fractions...
    3/6 + 2/6 = 5/6
    Ending cost to the taxpayer of the whole shebang assuming this conservative payback is a bit over 8bn.

    The President's budget for 2010 totals $3.55 trillion
    .008/3.55 or approximatly two tenths of one percent of the 2010 Federal Budget.

    Given that perspective, I think the hand-wringing is a *wee* bit overblown. We have other things to worry about.
    Please tell me how two tenths of one percent of the federal budget shows that we "are ed".

    Then give me a rational estimate as to the likely effects of NOT bailing out GM would have had on the economy.

    If your assertion is that the only reason GM was bailed out was because they "bought politicians", you must show that the cost of the bailout exceeded the cost of not bailing out, at the very least.







    ... or you could just admit your opinion was based on nothing more than vapid cynicism, and save us a lot of time.

    Your call.

  11. #111
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    foxnews' in oil companies pockets again

    http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2010/...electric-cars/

    I just have to laugh at this .
    Tell me how that was "pro-oil"?

    Be specific.

  12. #112
    I play pretty, no? TeyshaBlue's Avatar
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    foxnews' in oil companies pockets again

    http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2010/...electric-cars/

    I just have to laugh at this .
    lol @ critical thinking fail.

  13. #113
    Pimp Marcus Bryant's Avatar
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    Please tell me how two tenths of one percent of the federal budget shows that we "are ed".

    Then give me a rational estimate as to the likely effects of NOT bailing out GM would have had on the economy.

    If your assertion is that the only reason GM was bailed out was because they "bought politicians", you must show that the cost of the bailout exceeded the cost of not bailing out, at the very least.







    ... or you could just admit your opinion was based on nothing more than vapid cynicism, and save us a lot of time.

    Your call.

    Yet another hyperventalist screed, designed to boost his flagging ego.

  14. #114
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Yet another hyperventalist screed, designed to boost his flagging ego.
    So... the anwswer is "no, I don't have any real proof for my opinion that the bailout of GM was motivated purely by politicians who were bought and paid for"

    Thank you.

    Vapid.
    Cynicism.


  15. #115
    Pimp Marcus Bryant's Avatar
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    Yeah, who could ever think that politicians might be corrupt or swayed by certain interests?

    And you'll notice I didn't date the time during which I alleged said interest was bought. It's obviously been going on for decades. And then, of course, there's the UAW...

    For such a brilliant mind you are subject to committing some rather common mistakes. Egads.

  16. #116
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Yeah, who could ever think that politicians might be corrupt or swayed by certain interests?

    And you'll notice I didn't date the time during which I alleged said interest was bought. It's obviously been going on for decades. And then, of course, there's the UAW...

    For such a brilliant mind you are subject to committing some rather common mistakes. Egads.
    I am sure there was indeed some impetus on the part of some Democrats to do a solid for the UAW.

    I am also just as sure that was not the sole consideration, or even the most important one, despite the bovine flatulatory noises to the contrary by the poltical hacks on the right, whose knee-jerk dislike of unions causes them to see reality through useless blinders.

  17. #117
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    The problem with the "GM was rescued just to save the UAW" theory is that there were no few number of people who had nothing to do with the unions also saying it was probably a bad idea to let GM implode catastrophically.

  18. #118
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    I am also just as sure that was not the sole consideration, or even the most important one, despite the bovine flatulatory noises to the contrary...
    I wouldn't crow too much about that. Being certain about one's own strawman carries a very low degree of difficulty.
    ...by the political hacks on the right, whose knee-jerk dislike of unions causes them to see reality through useless blinders.
    Is this a rant, an incipient association fallacy, or both?

  19. #119
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    The Treasury Department dramatically boosted its estimate of losses from its $85 billion auto industry bailout by more than $9 billion in the face of General Motors Co.'s steep stock decline.

    In its monthly report to Congress, the Treasury Department now says it expects to lose $23.6 billion, up from its previous estimate of $14.33 billion.



    The Treasury now pegs the cost of the bailout of GM, Chrysler Group LLC and the auto finance companies at $79.6 billion. It no longer includes $5 billion it set aside to guarantee payments to auto suppliers in 2009.



    The big increase is a reflection of the sharp decline in the value of GM's share price.
    The current estimate of losses is based on GM's Sept. 30 closing price of $20.18, down one-third over the previous quarterly price.



    GM's stock closed Monday at $22.99, up 2 percent. The government won't reassess the estimate of the costs until Dec. 30.



    The government has recovered $23.2 billion of its $49.5 billion GM bailout, and cut its stake in the company from 61 percent to 26.5 percent. But it has been forced to put on hold the sale of its remaining 500 million shares of stock.



    The new estimate also hikes the overall cost of the $700 billion Troubled Asset Relief Program costs to taxpayers. TARP is the emergency program approved by Congress in late 2008 at the height of the financial crisis.



    In total, the government used $425 billion to bailout banks, insurance companies and automakers, and provided $45 billion in housing program assistance.



    The government now expects to lose $57.33 billion, including the full cost of the housing program, up from $36.7 billion. The new estimate means the government doesn't believe it will make an overall profit on its bailouts.

  20. #120
    Displaced 101A's Avatar
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    I don't think anyone is listening, WH.

  21. #121
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    You are, which makes me modestly hopeful others may too.

  22. #122
    Scrumtrulescent
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    Not much to say really. It was going to be a ty deal for the taxpayers from the beginning.

  23. #123
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    And surprise, surprise, nobody wants to buy their ty Volt...

  24. #124
    Old fogey Bender's Avatar
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    You are, which makes me modestly hopeful others may too.
    I'm just waiting for the thread starter to chime in...

  25. #125
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    I'm just waiting for the thread starter to chime in...
    Or DMX7 or any of the other idiots that were swearing the US was gonna make a killing in the IPO. I called this one from day one.

    BTW, Chrysler is now fully owned by an Italian company and the world didn't end and the Chrysler/Jeep brand still exists. Imagine that.

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