wth happened to raising the bar

[DPG21920]

Proven false, Amare is doing just fine without him contrary to what you all THOUGHT would happen.

No, I knew Amare would be fine. I never attributed everything to Nash. But nothing was proven false with regards to Nash helping Amare's numbers. Nash was a MVP and people had to pay attention to him. That helps.

[HarlemHeat37]

Bosh sucks as a 3rd option now and he sucked as a 3rd option back then, the difference is there was no evidence that Bosh was so bad as a 3rd option several months ago. He has no way to play off better players other than hulk up jumpers.

Exactly..how can you have argued that back then when you had no visual or statistical evidence of how Bosh plays as a non-#1 option?..this is the first year where he isn't the #1 option..

[YoungB]

I fully agree that Amare is better at moving off the ball than Bosh..my point is that before this season, we only knew Bosh as a #1 option, so I was comparing the 2 as primary options for their teams, where they both had the ball a lot..

I'm not arguing for Bosh being as good as Stoudemire now..I'm arguing why I thought it was a toss-up in the past..

Amare's the only one suited as a number one option IMO..we saw that teams with Amare as a 1 option can come damn close to a championship. Bosh led teams finish 4th or 5th in the east.

[DPG21920]

I fully agree that Amare is better at moving off the ball than Bosh..my point is that before this season, we only knew Bosh as a #1 option, so I was comparing the 2 as primary options for their teams, where they both had the ball a lot..

I'm not arguing for Bosh being as good as Stoudemire now..I'm arguing why I thought it was a toss-up in the past..

They don't get that.

[DPG21920]

Proven false, Amare is doing just fine without him contrary to what you all THOUGHT would happen.

Same favorable system and pace as well.

[HarlemHeat37]

Amare's the only one suited as a number one option IMO..we saw that teams with Amare as a 1 option can come damn close to a championship. Bosh led teams finish 4th or 5th in the east.

Amare has never been the clear #1 option until this year, but I agree that Bosh can't lead a team anywhere as a #1, obviously..

[YoungB]

No, I knew Amare would be fine.

I wish I was a forum Hawk and could pull up old posts with ease. You never said anything which would lead someone to think you thought this, but go ahead and prove me wrong though.

[DPG21920]

I think win shares is a bull stat (you've never seen me use it). I don't feel like addressing a stat where no one is even sure how it's calculated. What about Amare got better as a player and what about Bosh got worse? Just like you, I want specifics. From what I've watched, they're the same players they were back then.

HH already went into it. Read it.

I have given you specifics. You just keep saying "I don't care about stats and no argument can be made".

Like I said, you have terrible/no arguments.

[HarlemHeat37]

Oh gee idk, I understand basketball and by watching how Bosh played, I knew he'd suck as a 3rd option. Doesn't that make any sense to you, or is your brain that dumb that you can't even get that?

What does that have to do with "understanding basketball"?..you had never even seen Bosh try to play off the ball on a consistent basis, how could you have come to that conclusion?..he wasn't in a position to play off the ball consistently, he didn't have the teammates or system to run it..

[YoungB]

Amare has never been the clear #1 option until this year, but I agree that Bosh can't lead a team anywhere as a #1, obviously..

So Amare is a true #1 option seeing how NY is playing great, and his previous success with the Suns as an "unclear #1 option." While as you admitted, Bosh isn't a number 1 option, more like a #2 or 3. That's why I say comparing the 2 is re ed, no way is a number 2 option on the level of a true go to guy.

[DPG21920]

I wish I was a forum Hawk and could pull up old posts with ease. You never said anything which would lead someone to think you thought this, but go ahead and prove me wrong though.

Are you ing re ed? I never, never said Nash made Amare. I discussed with DOK how he did the same thing with Starbury.

So, next...

Saying Bosh>Amare at the time, but that it was close does not mean Nash made Amare.

[DPG21920]

Nothing was proven false, but if you actually watched some Suns games and actually understood basketball, you'd know Amare would be just as productive without Nash. You wouldn't need "proof" to think so.

I already said det tbh.

[DPG21920]

Felton >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Calderon & Hedo

[YoungB]

He was never good on offense at anything other than isos.

Which he still never really converted at that high of a rate, at 49% for a big..

[HarlemHeat37]

Calderon is a terrible p&r player, and Turkoglu was used horribly in Toronto, as he himself has admitted..they hardly ran any p&rs with Turkoglu, even though it's his only asset as a player..

So Amare is a true #1 option seeing how NY is playing great, and his previous success with the Suns as an "unclear #1 option." While as you admitted, Bosh isn't a number 1 option, more like a #2 or 3. That's why I say comparing the 2 is re ed, no way is a number 2 option on the level of a true go to guy.

Amare is playing great as a #1 option THIS season..

[YoungB]

Calderon is a terrible p&r player, and Turkoglu was used horribly in Toronto, as he himself has admitted..they hardly ran any p&rs with Turkoglu, even though it's his only asset as a player..



Amare is playing great as a #1 option THIS season..

So who was the Suns #1 option on offense in previous seasons? (I'll give you a hint, he always scored the most points..)

This should be interesting.

[DPG21920]

So lets get this straight:

1) HH and I say Bosh>Amare before this year started, but that it was very close and the gap was negligible. We provided statistical analysis to back up our arguments and the entire NBA including GM's agreed.

2) Mav Fan says "I don't believe in stats and it's impossible to make a statistical argument" and then says false things like Amare is the better defender & rebounder and that Bosh always shot way more jump shots than Amare.

3) They still use today's evidence to try and dispute the argument back then and fail to acknowledge that we all say Amare is now clearly better than Bosh at the moment, but at the time of the argument it was close.

4) They then say explain how the players are different, we do using statistical analysis while evaluating cir stance and their new roles and then Mav fan again says "I ignore the only tangible thing (stat. analysis) and I will only argue after the fact".

[HarlemHeat37]

So who was the Suns #1 option on offense in previous seasons? (I'll give you a hint, he always scored the most points..)

This should be interesting.

Nash and Stoudemire..they both had the ball in their hands as much as the other, obviously..

[HarlemHeat37]

You guys clearly didn't watch the Raptors on a consistent basis..I've already proven you wrong about Bosh being strictly a jump shooter in previous seasons, and your claims about the Raptors playing Bosh off the ball was clearly wrong, too..

[YoungB]

DPG's mental capacity seems to not extend past advanced stats on a piece of paper (Which I've already shown how they can be flawed two or three different times on this site) so therefore anything else is a "terrible argument."

The bottom line is, me and picklebreath were right about the two all along, we obviously saw something you guys didn't. You are the guys changing your previous stance. We knew who was better all along, and it was quite obvious to those with an IQ higher than that of a baby chimp.

[HarlemHeat37]

If you had previously watched Amare and understood basketball rather than judging everything off advanced statistics like a nerd, you would know Amare would be just fine as a #1. The fact you think a re ed stat like "% of FGs made off assists" means anything just proves my point. When Nash threw a pass to Amare that he had to catch in traffic and then finish over a taller player, that stupid advanced stat makes a great play by Amare look like a great play from Nash.

I've always said Amare would be fine as a #1 option..you can find dozens of posts where I say it..

It doesn't change the fact that attributing the Suns previous success to Amare when Nash was also on the team(and was arguably the #1 option), and discrediting Bosh as a #1 option, is obviously unfair..

[DPG21920]

DPG and Harlem don't seem to understand that YoungB and I are able to make conclusions about how Amare and Bosh would do this year based on what we saw from previously watching them. Their mental capacity prevents them from going beyond a piece of paper to gauge how someone will do as the #1 or #3 option.

You did nothing you idiot. DoK did. You did nothing however. Trying to steal credit from others makes you s .

[YoungB]

So lets get this straight:3) They still use today's evidence to try and dispute the argument back then and fail to acknowledge that we all say Amare is now clearly better than Bosh at the moment, but at the time of the argument it was close.

You still really don't get it. Both players are the same as they were a few months ago, not much has changed. You only PERCEIVED that it was close, when in reality it was smoke and mirrors because Bosh is the type of player that can put up nice numbers as a #1 option on a ty team like Toronto without ever translating his play to wins. Amare on the other hand has always been a good ball player who can contribute no matter what team he's on.

[DPG21920]

DPG's mental capacity seems to not extend past advanced stats on a piece of paper (Which I've already shown how they can be flawed two or three different times on this site) so therefore anything else is a "terrible argument."

The bottom line is, me and picklebreath were right about the two all along, we obviously saw something you guys didn't. You are the guys changing your previous stance. We knew who was better all along, and it was quite obvious to those with an IQ higher than that of a baby chimp.

So the guy who understands and applies statistics is the idiot while the guys who say you cannot use stats and arguments are impossible to quantify are smart.

Now I have seen it all

[DPG21920]

DPG's mental capacity seems to not extend past advanced stats on a piece of paper (Which I've already shown how they can be flawed two or three different times on this site) so therefore anything else is a "terrible argument."

The bottom line is, me and picklebreath were right about the two all along, we obviously saw something you guys didn't. You are the guys changing your previous stance. We knew who was better all along, and it was quite obvious to those with an IQ higher than that of a baby chimp.

So they were never comparable players? Simple yes or no.