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My cave has 4th of July celebrations in January.
Its hilarious isn't it?so you do see yourself as the man released from the cave.
bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahaha.
My cave has 4th of July celebrations in January.
to say I am enlightened is to say I have the truth. Which I readily admit I dont. I search for it.
But while we may all be in the dark (which Manny nor RG would ever admit; who has the ego?), the fact that I dont mock those ideas that dont get any airplay on MSM says enough.
And the fact that Manny, RG, DMX7, WC, and a handful of others do mock anything that isn't covered by MSM speaks volumes as well.
As I see it, the common thread shared by all men: we all have egos, and we want to study and master our surrounding to the greatest extent possible.
But the lesson of the Cave is that we can only master that which is before us. And if we reject and ridicule anything new simply because it has never been presented before us before, we subject ourselves to being controlled in the way that the puppeteers did in the short. For Manny, WC, and RG, you confirm your place in the world-according-to-Plato with your ridicule of all things not mentioned on Fox or CNBC.
And I know that very likely we are all in the dark. Ha! How can we make it to daylight if our media, govt, commerce, and currency are controlled completely?
Understand the implications here. I am not saying I know the truth. I am saying stop posturing as if you handfull of "United" masters-of-your-own-reality do, and be su ious of every passing shadow. Because that is confirmation that you are acting as miserable cave dwellers, turning to mock any who challenges your mastery of the shadow reality that must be the one and only, because you have mastered it.
Now, tell me, who has the ego again?
Again the mocking is the tell-tale sign.
You have the ego because according to you rejecting your theories and postulations is akin to believing you know it all.
I mock your chemtrail position and I'll do so all day long. You believe that to be due to a flaw on my end and not a flaw in the data you put forth. Thats your option but one easily refuted. You don't see our rejection of what you say as an indicator at the level of ridiculousness of it but instead see us as unfairly rejecting it because the MSM doesn't report on it when its clearly been pointed out thats not the case.
Plato's metaphysics is based on nothing but his imagination and the rest of that book is a justification for elitist totalitarianism.
Wave theory and Maxwell's equations are enlightening. Being fascinated by shadows is not.
One of your main mistakes is only allowing that the mocking and ridicule you receive is due to your message being different or obscure. I've tried to explain this to you before, but perhaps its the way you deliver the message. In almost every thread you make, your too busy talking to actually have a conversation. At some point that annoys the out of people and they fall back and ridicule and mocking, but you aren't the least bit introspective in looking for the reasoning behind it.
Your constant reference to "all of us" reveals your need to be a part of something greater than yourself. That need manifests in your rejection of anything outside of the mainstream paradigm.
If you insist on the mocking, you might do some introspection and try to determine exactly what seperates you from those in the cave.
We have already shown that simply saying "my position is superior, and your position is laughable, so you will be mocked" doesnt foreclose on the possibility that the reality you have mastered.... one without chemtrails, to be specific... is the true reality. And yet you arrogantly dismiss any conclusion that hasnt made your nightly news...
So what is left to seperate you from a cave dweller?
Looks like you have the mocking part down, and you have the need to join those around you in consensus, as the cave dwellers did in Plato's imagination.
ME: I admit my potential for fallibility. I believe the chemtrail phenomena is real, but I dont need you to believe. I also am fine to admit we dont have all the info in front of us, but I insist we have enough to continue this line of questioning.
VS.
YOU: You need to stamp out the credibility of anyone who mentions this idea on the other hand. You have a burning desire to not only attack the speaker of any such idea, but also to rally a united front to your cause, to intimidate the speaker and ensure elimination of the idea from any discussion altogether.
this is horse . check the record. in every one of these threads, the downward spiral starts with the "tin hat" comments.
And to be honest, I present these threads to challenge the community.
Most people move away from saying what "the" lesson is in any allegory is since, by design, allegories lend themselves to all kinds of readings, and anyone who reads the words of Socrates learns almost immediately that he is not exactly an honest interlocutor, and that among his most cherished pedagogical tools are irony and being a prick.
That said, while you're as en led to your interpretation as the rest of us, I think that by viewing the cave as a description of how people are controlled politically, you're not giving the allegory a fair shake or understanding why it's had such legs in the history of philosophy as a big part of metaphysics.
Think about it: if you can only master what is before you, and all you see/know is shadows, then you neither know anything, nor really know that you know nothing. That includes you, me, and everyone else -- who have little more than conversation to make sense of what they are seeing, but no direct experience with Truth -- only it's emanations.
He then creates a character who has been accustomed to the light and puts him in the cave, such that his vision is impaired by the dark of the cave. Since Socrates explains that the light is a metaphor for mightiest of all ideals (The Good) and that the figures projected on the cave wall represent specific instantiations of perfect metaphysical ideas, how can this literally enlightened person understand the world of half-truths in the cave, or it him? If we're building the perfect state, we need a perfect leader like this enlightened man we've introduced to the dark -- but what is the purpose of a polity that cannot strive after the same true ideals about The Good their leader possesses?
We're already pretty far afield of political manipulation or human deception in any conventional form, wouldn't you agree? So the discussion becomes how do we recognize and communicate truth, and the answer is to have a common piece between both the light and shaded areas -- a person who comes from darkness and is drawn out toward light in a way none of us drudges are capable of doing or knowing to do, who can then explain the divine order to us in terms we can grasp.
There are many (myself among them) who would say that the reason the ideal republic they try to build in their conversation is ultimately deemed a failure is that Truth cannot be taught, only recognized/remembered on a metaphysical level and strived for through rasoning. In other words,there will never be a perfect republic any more than there will ever be a philosopher king, there will only be the process by which it and he should be created. So the allegory becomes a pedagogical "likely story," to incentivize the act of becoming wiser through dialectical reasoning (ie conversation), not the description of some schmuck who will come to save us one day.
It seems both manny and Parker can agree that educating the currently system-supressed appethetic masses can go a long way to resolving what both appear to believe is the root cause of being bound to the cave.
Parker, Manny, how do you suggest going about educating the masses bound to the cave considering the confines of the current system?
I like your work
I think we have a bit of a renaissance going on as we speak.
I think thats why the govt is preparing to start censoring the net.
Knowledge is power. People in the know ask questions. They dont stand pat on what they are told by their government officials.
Knowledge is awful contagious. I dont think we can trust our education system to educate our kids. We have to take it upon ourselves to educate both ourselves and our kids.
Ultimately, as people suffer more at the hands of government/big corps, they will begin to seek the sun.
that pic is from 2005, btw...but they are experiencing riots this year as well.
Pusher, what do you think education would entail?
You say you want a revolution? I believe that revolution comes from working within the existing political system as it can in a democracy, which we just so happen to live in. Not by scrapping it to give rights back to the states and return to a political system we have already evolved past as a nation.
With regard to political education, I actually agree the tea party has brought about a bit of a renaissance with regard to interest in the federal deficit. I'd suggest Obama capitalize on that interest by making hard decisions and convince the American people that we can't continue to live in debt and both sides are going to have to give. If he can do that, he'll se hailed as one of the greatest presidents of all time.
Scrapping the current system to go back to states rights while requiring personal responsibility in our media controlled culture is not a reasonable option at this point. I don't believe there is anything elitist about that point of view. That's just the current reality and the framework we must work within. I don't think you realistically work within that framework.
I've said it before but I feel it important to emphasize particularly in this thread.......Parker.......you make this forum even dumber.
I didn't think it possible, but you've managed to dumb down the dumbest ing forum on the internet.
However, on a positive note, you managed to bring together both the 'left' and the 'right' on this forum with a common denominator......that common denominator of course being that everyone here thinks you're a ing idiot.
I recommend hand grenades.
admires the example of AdmiralSnackbar, but takes it as a sign of cultural degeneracy that his accurate precis of the parable is met only with dumb admiration and smilies. Clearly, some people over-relied on the vid.
Someone else, clearly, read their and mastered it.
(Where in former times the conversation merely began, it now screeches to an abrupt halt. Sad, isn't it?)
AdmiralSnackbar put out a very well thought out post which is par for the course for him.
I agree that the perfect republic will never be attained, but not just because the people that attempt it will always fail to find Truth. It's that there will always be a disagreement as to what Truth is.
If people want to believe the Truth is the cave, then so be it. Who am I to tell them that they are living a lie if I'm not sure what Truth really is myself?
Is the red pill the reality or the illusion?
Horse , as usual.
I didn't even say I agreed with his take. Fact is I dont. His analysis doesnt deal with the manipulation of the cave dwellers by those setting up the whole scenario. I just admire the fact that he put some thought into it. More than can be said for you, Manny, or RG. So off WH.
Can you point to the quotes on which you're basing your claim that the scenario is being set up by a person or people, Park?
I was wrong. I jumped to conclusions, snackbar. I need to re-read with your above post in mind.
Plato's allegory of the cave is the beginning of an entire system of Western epistemological (system of knowing) hegemony, and it was designed so as to provide a justification for the elite's to rule over the people. The idea that one cannot know what one does not study intently is, frankly, insulting and it leaves all of one's feelings, emotions, hopes, and aspirations out of the educational arena. This is why expertise is developed on the basis of one's learned credentials instead of one's beliefs, experiences, and feelings about the world. For instance, the Supreme Court is made up of some of the most learned men and women in the country, and yet Clarence Thomas, Antonin Scalia, John Roberts, and (sadly) Kennedy all have a tendency to yearn for the dark ages when torture, corporate control over the government, absolute state authority, and aristocracy were the rule of the day.
Plato was the myth master though, and it is no coincidence that he and aristotle served/continue to serve as the foundational justification for Western systems of hierarchy to this very day.
My arrogant assumption would be that a person coming out of the cave where all the shadows were fake, would naturally make plans to kill the mother er who kept them chained up in the cave.
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