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  1. #1
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    Prediction #1 for 2011: Expect the wing-nuts attack on public education to intensify...

    If liberals like Reich are spreading lies about education, what's a pro voucher wing-nut to do?

    Robert Reich joins the attack on American public education while do enting the attack on American public education
    George N. Schmidt - December 25, 2010


    Just before Christmas, on December 23, University of California (Berkeley) economics professor and pundit Robert Reich published an analysis totaling up some of the costs of the recent attacks on public education across the USA. This holiday, it's worth reading (or re-reading) as we take a closer look at what 2011 will bring to American democracy, America's public schools, and our unions. Leaving aside Reich's boneheaded notion about vouchers (below), a closer look at the national attacks on both k-12 and higher education like the one Reich begins here (Illinois is con uously absent from many of his listings below) is more necessary now than ever. And maybe someone reading this can pull Reich over and fill him in on why vouchers are one of the worst ideas every touted by "economists."

    Berkeley professor and former Clinton administration Labor Secretary Robert Reich (above) favors vouchers but admits that public schools need support. But one of the most significant things that can be culled already from these data is the simple facts that the USA is simply reverting to the status quo that existed throughout most of history, when k-12 schooling was manual training (remember "grammar school"?) for the working class, and college excluded working class children by means of the "free market." At the time Grapes of Wrath was published (and do ented some of the horrors facing the working class in California, where Reich works today), to urge working class children (white, black, other) to aspire to college was cruel. All the child had to do was harvest a million tons of strawberries while working 36 hours a day in one of those labor camps or canneries in California depicted in John Steinback's novels.

    So we're simply getting back to that as a country. But since a couple of generations of children have been raised believing that they had the right to a decent k-12 education and higher learning if they worked hard, the propaganda machine has to obliterate economic class and most of U.S. history as a piece of the current debate. With liberals like Robert Reich preaching vouchers, imagine what the "conservatives" are coming up with?

    Basically, until the American working class helped out allies around the world win World War II, higher learning in the USA was "pay to play." And most of those of us who were "qualified" for higher learning — even as late at the early 1960s, when I finished high school — couldn't pay and therefore weren't eligible to play. Most of my high school friends didn't get college scholarships, so they were "channeled" into the military via the Draft ("Selective Service"), some to die in the imperialist war in Vietnam (and elsewhere in Southeast Asia) and others to be seriously messed up by the empire's misuse of their talents.

    One of the grotesque lies being spread lately by Bill Gates (and others) is that the majority of working class kids in the USA are not "college ready" and therefore not doing college. One of the most ridiculous "data sets", which I heard recently from Advance Illinois, Stand for Children, and CPS officials at the Aurora hearings on Illinois "school reform," is that only a handful of Chicago high school children ever make it through a four-year college. The data were lies when they were first repeated from my Alma Mater (the University of Chicago) in 2002 and repeated over and over by that corporate reformer, Andy Stern, in 2006.

    And they don't become any more true when spouted by Alicia Winckler of CPS in 2010.

    Working class kids don't finish college in four years because, for the first time in about fifty years, the working class, no matter how motivated or talented, has been priced out of higher education. Vouchers and other crazy economists' nostrums won't solve that, because the problem is rooted in the most vicious returns to class warfare (against the working class and poor) in the USA.

    How many children were forced to drop out of the University of California at Berkeley, where Reich teaches. the past three years because tuition went through the roof and the family faced financial trouble, or ruin? Reich asks some of the right questions in the discussion below, but misses a lot.
    Link

  2. #2
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    By blocking the extension of Build America bonds, the Repugs are intent on forcing municipal and state govts into bankruptcy, wiping out pension funds (already one county has stopped pension checks, a clear violation of the law), which of course includes unionized teacher and govt employee pension plans.

    The VRWC and Repugs will not stop, and cannot be stopped, until America is wrecked, and govt so enfeebled so that nothing will obstruct the corps and capitalist as they mop up whatever power and wealth they don't already own.

  3. #3
    The D.R.A. Drachen's Avatar
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    I have a question. I understand the cons utional aspect of vouchers (i.e. the problem it creates regarding separation of church and state), but I want to know what is wrong with them otherwise?

    This is an honest question.

  4. #4
    The D.R.A. Drachen's Avatar
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    I am guessing the argument is that there will be less money per public school, but wouldn't that be equalized by the fact that fewer students are attending?

  5. #5
    A neverending cycle Trainwreck2100's Avatar
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    i'm for sending the smart kids to private schools away from the dumbass kids

  6. #6
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    TEXAS SCHOOL SPENDING TOPS $11K PER PUPIL

    http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=19360

    ==========

    The right-wing voucher push was clearly racist, as charter schools in the racist south rose as white schools were forced to integrate, and also clearly Christian supremacist as "Christian" charter schools could teach their Bible indoctrination on private premises. Clearly, being able to spout in rote and quote Bible chapter and verse is an excellent preparation for college and employment.

    Although there is some Robin-Hooding of K-12 funding in TX, we can assume it fails more often than not, so that public schools in wealthy districts spend a lot more than $11K/student.
    Last edited by boutons_deux; 01-02-2011 at 05:32 AM.

  7. #7
    A neverending cycle Trainwreck2100's Avatar
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    robin hooding ended like 3 years ago

  8. #8
    The D.R.A. Drachen's Avatar
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    TEXAS SCHOOL SPENDING TOPS $11K PER PUPIL

    http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=19360

    ==========

    The right-wing voucher push was clearly racist, as charter schools in the racist south rose as white schools were forced to integrate, and also clearly Christian supremacist as "Christian" charter schools could teach their Bible indoctrination on private premises. Clearly, being to spout and quote Bible chapter and verse is an excellent preparation for college and employment.

    Although there is some Robin-Hooding of K-12 funding in TX, we can assume it fails more often than not, so that public schools in wealthy districts spend a lot more than $11K/student.

    Despite your hyperbole, I don't see the problem with this idea. Why can't they get all of that education at such a school if the parents so choose? You are veering into the Church V. State thing, which is understandable, but is there ANOTHER reason to be against vouchers. I honestly could care less about the fact that the school I want to send my daughter to is a catholic school. I am far more interested in the quality of education. I went to a catholic school up until I was in 4th grade and once I hit public school, everything was easy because I was so far ahead. I want that for my daughter. However, just because the voucher system will benefit me (greatly as it is still unclear if I will be able to afford tuition), doesn't make it right, which is why I am asking for reasons other than church and state (I keep ignoring this part because I am sure that there is a way to structure the system which avoids this conflict).

  9. #9
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    Established Catholic K-12 schools do have a record of better quality of general education, while recent charter schools mostly have non-academic priority (re-segregation, Biblical indoctrination), with academics being secondary.

  10. #10
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    I sent my kids to private school through the 8th grade and they were MUCH better prepared for high school that their public mis-educated peers.

  11. #11
    The D.R.A. Drachen's Avatar
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    Established Catholic K-12 schools do have a record of better quality of general education, while recent charter schools mostly have non-academic priority (re-segregation, Biblical indoctrination), with academics being secondary.
    Oh, ok. I was unaware of that. So it just turns out I was lucky to be Catholic? lol

    One thing I will say was that the school I went to seems to be strange when you talk to people about their preconceived notions of catholic school. I had told one of my teachers (for religion class) that I wasn't sure I agreed with what was being taught (cant remember the lesson that day), and my teacher told me that this was fine, that it was important to question our faith, because otherwise, how do we know it is right. She also said that when our faith is proven to be correct that it makes it that much stronger. While this is a specific example, it wasn't necessarily an isolated incident. I benefited greatly from attending and just want my daughter to have the same opportunity.

    Most people think its some weird cult like experience, I found it to be quite enlightening.

  12. #12
    The Sean Marks Dance Duff McCartney's Avatar
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    I sent my kids to private school through the 8th grade and they were MUCH better prepared for high school that their public mis-educated peers.
    I think it's a mistake to say that public school children are mis-educated. The flaws are from our entire public school system that favors standardized testing over creativity, critical thinking, and reason. I find it problematic that now everyone is so entirely focused on math and science in schools. I think I will be hard pressed to find a job since I am in neither of these fields.

    I think focusing on math and science at the expense of other subjects like arts, music, and social studies will only hurt our education system rather than help it.

    As per the voucher thing, I'm pretty sure that the court system found it cons utional to use them for parochial schools because the intent of the statute is neutral under the Establishment Clause.

  13. #13
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Not being able to get a job in your field has more to do with the absolute flood of liberal arts degrees. Public schools are not focusing on Math and Science very well if thats what they're doing (look at Math literacy in our country and its not exactly good).

  14. #14
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    Not being able to get a job in your field has more to do with the absolute flood of liberal arts degrees. Public schools are not focusing on Math and Science very well if thats what they're doing (look at Math literacy in our country and its not exactly good).

    So true.

  15. #15
    A neverending cycle Trainwreck2100's Avatar
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    Not being able to get a job in your field has more to do with the absolute flood of liberal arts degrees. Public schools are not focusing on Math and Science very well if thats what they're doing (look at Math literacy in our country and its not exactly good).
    just took a certification test where the math was supposed to be insanely hard I studied a 60 page book, for 4 hours and passed a test sad suckers pay 10000 for a class to learn to pass

  16. #16
    Veteran scott's Avatar
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    The students I see every semester are not prepared for college. I never should have to spend time explaining to students how to calculate a percentage change between two numbers, or to calculate the area of a triangle. Yet, every semester I do.

    I find that a significant portion of incoming students (I mostly teach 200 level courses, but have a large number of freshman enrolled) are not only not prepared from an academic perspective, but are not prepared from a study habits or maturity perspective. I don't have a solution to propose, I am merely pointing out the problem.

    I went to a Catholic high school and even as an atheist I would send my children to Catholic school.

  17. #17
    The Sean Marks Dance Duff McCartney's Avatar
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    I find that a significant portion of incoming students (I mostly teach 200 level courses, but have a large number of freshman enrolled) are not only not prepared from an academic perspective, but are not prepared from a study habits or maturity perspective.
    I agree with you there. Maybe it's just our society that we have become accustomed to going directly to college after high school. For some students that does them good because they were focused in high school. But alot of students, especially ones who have it paid for them, just see college as an opportunity to off away from home. They don't put in the time and effort studying.

    I'll be the first to admit that I hate mathematics with a passion. But I know when I left high school even though my grades were good I was not ready for college. Now I know that even though I hate math, I still have to put in the effort to study and do the homework in order to succeed and I don't think alot of college students fresh from high school do that.

  18. #18
    俺はまんこが大好きなんだよ baseline bum's Avatar
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    I spent roughly the first half of my K-12 education in Catholic school and the second in public, and I have to say public was an enormous step down in difficulty until I could start taking AP classes (which were great). For instance, from 2nd grade on in Catholic school we'd have to write a book report every other week at least, while in public jr. high we might do it twice a semester max. The reading and writing loads were ridiculously weak in public school until I got to AP Language and AP Literature. I thought the gap was way less in math and science though.

  19. #19
    Esse quam videri ploto's Avatar
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    A big difference with a Catholic school is that the students more often come from families that value education. That is why they are there in the first place. Part of the battle that teachers face in public school is not there. They also manage to educate students better for less money per pupil, but they also do not have to face the financial challenges of special needs students and programs.

    You also have districts like NEISD and NISD spending ridiculous amounts of money to build buildings like Johnson High School while old Catholic schools in old buildings are educating the kids better overall. I am not sure how a gigantic stone wall helps the kids become better prepared for college.

  20. #20
    Esse quam videri ploto's Avatar
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    I have a question. I understand the cons utional aspect of vouchers (i.e. the problem it creates regarding separation of church and state), but I want to know what is wrong with them otherwise?
    I assume the issue is not so much the kids that would be "lost" after the voucher program went into effect, as it would be all the kids ALREADY not in public school who would take their money out. I know the area in which I live does not have nearly the number of public schools that would be expected for the population of kids in the area because so many parents send their kids to private school- religious or otherwise. If tomorrow all those schools closed, the district would have no clue what to do with them all. Every kid on my street- given that this only equals 5- goes to Catholic school despite the public schools being very good. If we all took our money with us tomorrow, what would the district do?

  21. #21
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    I assume the issue is not so much the kids that would be "lost" after the voucher program went into effect, as it would be all the kids ALREADY not in public school who would take their money out. I know the area in which I live does not have nearly the number of public schools that would be expected for the population of kids in the area because so many parents send their kids to private school- religious or otherwise. If tomorrow all those schools closed, the district would have no clue what to do with them all. Every kid on my street- given that this only equals 5- goes to Catholic school despite the public schools being very good. If we all took our money with us tomorrow, what would the district do?
    Hopefully be more efficient and quit pissing off money. The average 22 pupil third grade class gets over 1/4 million dollars for the year and the teacher gets about 40K of that. What happens to the other $210,000?

  22. #22
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    Hopefully be more efficient and quit pissing off money. The average 22 pupil third grade class gets over 1/4 million dollars for the year and the teacher gets about 40K of that. What happens to the other $210,000?
    Well to be fair, there is probably another 10k+ in benefits cost for said teacher.

    But yeah.

    Not being able to get a job in your field has more to do with the absolute flood of liberal arts degrees. Public schools are not focusing on Math and Science very well if thats what they're doing (look at Math literacy in our country and its not exactly good).
    I'm a bit surprised you didn't complain about English literacy as well. It's also woefully deficient.

  23. #23
    The D.R.A. Drachen's Avatar
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    Hopefully be more efficient and quit pissing off money. The average 22 pupil third grade class gets over 1/4 million dollars for the year and the teacher gets about 40K of that. What happens to the other $210,000?
    Interest expense on bonds?

    I know that the Catholic school I attended was in a series of what I call "permanent portable" buildings. They looked like all wood trailers with a wooden deck between classrooms. The cafeteria was in the old church building (a new one was built in the 70s or so). Then when they decided that they needed to upgrade, they squirreled away the money, passed a second collection plate for a few years and built a new school building in 1987 or 88 (complete with its own cafeteria!) as well as a gym. The old church is now a thrift shop and has been since that year. Its no super church or anything, basically a small one in Converse (st. monicas). I just wish I could send my daughter there (it is on the other side of town from where I live now) because tuition is only about 2500 a year whereas the nearest catholic school to where I live is St. Matthews and it is about 5500 a year. Hope its worth it.

  24. #24
    The D.R.A. Drachen's Avatar
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    I just realized I am turning the conversation away from the original topic. I won't bring it up again other than to discuss the problem with vouchers. Sorry about that.

  25. #25
    I play pretty, no? TeyshaBlue's Avatar
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    Hopefully be more efficient and quit pissing off money. The average 22 pupil third grade class gets over 1/4 million dollars for the year and the teacher gets about 40K of that. What happens to the other $210,000?
    You've got to amortize the buildings, utilities, bond repayment and maintenance, among other costs, CC.

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