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  1. #176
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    First I think one should define it, and work from there. If one doesn't understand it, then it is hard to talk about it.

    Biological evolution is genetic change in a population from one generation to another.
    A bit longer defintion and explanation can be found at one of the clearing-house sites. Unsurprisingly, a good deal of information can be found there, as this stuff has been hashed about unceasingly for decades.

    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evol...efinition.html

    Evolution is a process that results in heritable changes in a population spread over many generations.
    "One of the most respected evolutionary biologists has defined biological evolution as follows: "


    "In the broadest sense, evolution is merely change, and so is all-pervasive; galaxies, languages, and political systems all evolve. Biological evolution ... is change in the properties of populations of organisms that transcend the lifetime of a single individual. The ontogeny of an individual is not considered evolution; individual organisms do not evolve. The changes in populations that are considered evolutionary are those that are inheritable via the genetic material from one generation to the next. Biological evolution may be slight or substantial; it embraces everything from slight changes in the proportion of different alleles within a population (such as those determining blood types) to the successive alterations that led from the earliest protoorganism to snails, bees, giraffes, and dandelions."
    - Douglas J. Futuyma in Evolutionary Biology, Sinauer Associates 1986

    If one wants the full essay it is there.

    Note that biological evolution is a tad different than talking about the ultimate origin of life. That is another kettle of protozoa.

  2. #177
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    The mechanisms of evolution are mutation and natural selection.

    All the specific mechanisms of mutation are still not 100% catalogued (to my understanding), but recent advances in genetics have filled in quite enough for us to have gotten how and when mutations occur, as well as the various statistical liklihoods of different kinds of mutation.

    Natural selection occurs when differences in expressed genes cause reproductive successes or failures over variances. I.e. an expressed gene provides a benefit, or conversely a detriment to survival. Good examples are dark colored fur for rodents in light coloured backgrounds, or the ability to outrun predators, or produce more offspring.

  3. #178
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    How Do We Know That Evolution Has Occurred?

    The evidence for evolution has primarily come from four sources:

    1. the fossil record of change in earlier species
    2. the chemical and anatomical similarities of related life forms
    3. the geographic distribution of related species
    4. the recorded genetic changes in living organisms over many generations

    http://anthro.palomar.edu/evolve/evolve_3.htm
    --------------------------------------------------------

    We have observed evolution in the laboratory.

    Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab

    A major evolutionary innovation has unfurled right in front of researchers' eyes. It's the first time evolution has been caught in the act of making such a rare and complex new trait.

    And because the species in question is a bacterium, scientists have been able to replay history to show how this evolutionary novelty grew from the ac ulation of unpredictable, chance events.

    Twenty years ago, evolutionary biologist Richard Lenski of Michigan State University in East Lansing, US, took a single Escherichia coli bacterium and used its descendants to found 12 laboratory populations.

    The 12 have been growing ever since, gradually ac ulating mutations and evolving for more than 44,000 generations, while Lenski watches what happens.

    Mostly, the patterns Lenski saw were similar in each separate population. All 12 evolved larger cells, for example, as well as faster growth rates on the glucose they were fed, and lower peak population densities.

    But sometime around the 31,500th generation, something dramatic happened in just one of the populations - the bacteria suddenly acquired the ability to metabolise citrate, a second nutrient in their culture medium that E. coli normally cannot use.

    Indeed, the inability to use citrate is one of the traits by which bacteriologists distinguish E. coli from other species. The citrate-using mutants increased in population size and diversity.

    "It's the most profound change we have seen during the experiment. This was clearly something quite different for them, and it's outside what was normally considered the bounds of E. coli as a species, which makes it especially interesting," says Lenski.
    We have observed new species being formed within the last few hundred years.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciation

    Observed instances
    Mayr bird fauna
    The Australian bird Petroica multicolor
    Reproductive isolation occurs in populations of Drosophila subject to population bottlenecking
    Observed instances
    Ring species
    The Larus gulls form a ring species around the North Pole.
    The Ensatina salamanders, which form a ring round the Central Valley in California.
    The Greenish Warbler (Phylloscopus trochiloides), around the Himalayas.
    ... among others.

  4. #179
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    IF one really wanted to explore and learn about the evidence for evolution:

    29+ Evidences for Macroevolution
    The Scientific Case for Common Descent
    Version 2.87

    Copyright © 1999-2006 by Douglas Theobald, Ph.D.
    [Last Update: June 19, 2007]

    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

    Are There Other Scientifically Valid Explanations?
    The worldwide scientific research community from over the past 140 years has discovered that no known hypothesis other than universal common descent can account scientifically for the unity, diversity, and patterns of terrestrial life. This hypothesis has been verified and corroborated so extensively that it is currently accepted as fact by the overwhelming majority of professional researchers in the biological and geological sciences (AAAS 1990; NAS 2003; NCSE 2003; Working Group 2001).
    No alternate explanations compete scientifically with common descent, primarily for four main reasons:
    (1) so many of the predictions of common descent have been confirmed from independent areas of science,
    (2) no significant contradictory evidence has yet been found,
    (3) competing possibilities have been contradicted by enormous amounts of scientific data, and
    (4) many other explanations are untestable, though they may be trivially consistent with biological data.
    ---------------------------------------

    Note this acknowledges things that seem contradictory and even (gasp) mistakes. What it does say is that the overwhelming preponderance of evidence supports the theory that groups of organisms can and do change over time.

    The above link is also useful for defintions of "scientific" as well.

    Scientific theories are validated by empirical testing against physical observations. Theories are not judged simply by their logical compatibility with the available data. Independent empirical testability is the hallmark of science—in science, an explanation must not only be compatible with the observed data, it must also be testable. By "testable" we mean that the hypothesis makes predictions about what observable evidence would be consistent and what would be incompatible with the hypothesis. Simple compatibility, in itself, is insufficient as scientific evidence, because all physical observations are consistent with an infinite number of unscientific conjectures. Furthermore, a scientific explanation must make risky predictions— the predictions should be necessary if the theory is correct, and few other theories should make the same necessary predictions.

  5. #180
    Saytowns Fawtbox King lebomb's Avatar
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    What exactly do you think mouse's theory is?
    if I know, remember I didnt understand Inception?............I just said he is TRYING to define it. Yall are bashing him, but havent really said a damn thing yourselves about what you believe in.

  6. #181
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Instead of bashing Mouse, who is actually trying to explain examples of his theory............why dont yall show us some proof as well.

    Its like ya bash Mouse, then answer questions with questions. No one has proven in this thread, other than a great ability to smash people who believe in a different theory.
    Mouse doesn't really have a theory. All he has is stuff that bashes evolution.

    Are you going to call him on that?

    We have been asking mouse to flesh out his theory, but have met with little success.

    Maybe you will have better luck.

  7. #182
    Saytowns Fawtbox King lebomb's Avatar
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    Thanks Randomguy..............let me take this all in, and I will get back with you.

  8. #183
    Saytowns Fawtbox King lebomb's Avatar
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    Mouse doesn't really have a theory. All he has is stuff that bashes evolution.

    Are you going to call him on that?

    We have been asking mouse to flesh out his theory, but have met with little success.

    Maybe you will have better luck.

    Mouse sees creation differently..............he was explaining why he believes in what he believes in and yall found holes in it. Believe me, there are holes in evolution big time, as well as creationism. Just sayin.............

  9. #184
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Mouse sees creation differently..............he was explaining why he believes in what he believes in and yall found holes in it. Believe me, there are holes in evolution big time, as well as creationism. Just sayin.............
    I don't think there are "big time" holes in evolution, but feel free to read up on it. Maybe your concerns are addressed somewhere.

    There is a lot to understand.

    If you want an actual book to hold in your hand:

    http://www.amazon.com/Why-Evolution-.../dp/0670020532

    It is a good read. It also explains why Darwin got a few things wrong, mostly because DNA was yet to be discovered or understood, as well as offers some very fascinating bits on new research.

    My wife took a rather high-power course on evolution for her biology degree, and I got to sit in an audit a few times on days off. Yikes. Interesting, but very very detailed. Not having the specific genetics classes made me struggle to keep up, but it was fun.

    To really get into it requires one to get into some fairly intense genetics.

    In addition to the Talk Origins page, http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

    There are a few other good ones to be found on that web through university biology departments.

  10. #185
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    if I know, remember I didnt understand Inception?............I just said he is TRYING to define it. Yall are bashing him, but havent really said a damn thing yourselves about what you believe in.
    I responded to his "alternative design" tenets nearly line by line.

    I also don't recall anyone asking me directly what I believe in this thread about any particular thing.

  11. #186
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    Believe me, there are holes in evolution big time, as well as creationism. Just sayin.............
    What hole do you see in evolution?

  12. #187
    Saytowns Fawtbox King lebomb's Avatar
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    I responded to his "alternative design" tenets nearly line by line.

    I also don't recall anyone asking me directly what I believe in this thread about any particular thing.

    Ok...............I will ask. What do you believe in?? And dont get me started with the holes in evolution.....because whatever I say you will ask a question about. Do some research like I did. You will see some holes.

  13. #188
    Saytowns Fawtbox King lebomb's Avatar
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    I don't think there are "big time" holes in evolution, but feel free to read up on it. Maybe your concerns are addressed somewhere.

    There is a lot to understand.

    If you want an actual book to hold in your hand:

    http://www.amazon.com/Why-Evolution-.../dp/0670020532

    It is a good read. It also explains why Darwin got a few things wrong, mostly because DNA was yet to be discovered or understood, as well as offers some very fascinating bits on new research.

    My wife took a rather high-power course on evolution for her biology degree, and I got to sit in an audit a few times on days off. Yikes. Interesting, but very very detailed. Not having the specific genetics classes made me struggle to keep up, but it was fun.

    To really get into it requires one to get into some fairly intense genetics.

    In addition to the Talk Origins page, http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

    There are a few other good ones to be found on that web through university biology departments.
    I hear ya............but, what you have to understand is evolution makes sense to those who believe in it. You will find holes by those who oppose it. Why would someone who teaches a class in evolution show you any holes. That is like the pastor of a Baptist church saying Jesus may not have existed.

  14. #189
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Ok...............I will ask. What do you believe in?? And dont get me started with the holes in evolution.....because whatever I say you will ask a question about. Do some research like I did. You will see some holes.
    ... and they are? (curious)

    Always up to a good research project.

  15. #190
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    Ok...............I will ask. What do you believe in??
    I have a long list that I'd rather not waste time unnecessarily typing out.

    Be more specific.

    And dont get me started with the holes in evolution.....because whatever I say you will ask a question about. Do some research like I did. You will see some holes.
    What makes you think I haven't?

    do some research on my posts in the creation threads here in the Club and I think you will see I've done some research on evolutionary theory.

    I'm also not saying there aren't holes. I'm asking you to pick one for us to discuss.

  16. #191
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    By the by:

    One or more of the "holes" has probably been addressed in their responses to creationist claims here:

    http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html

  17. #192
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    Why would someone who teaches a class in evolution show you any holes. That is like the pastor of a Baptist church saying Jesus may not have existed.
    not really.

  18. #193
    Saytowns Fawtbox King lebomb's Avatar
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    Meh..........yall have at it. This debate about how we all got here, how it all started has been going on since day 1. Its a non winnable debate. I care to observe than participate...........no matter what I say will change anyones mind about what they believe, and vice versa. Just like Mila Kunis being hot.

    Its all a big waste of typing really.

    Meep Meep!!

  19. #194
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    I'm also not saying there aren't holes.
    No alternate explanations compete scientifically with common descent, primarily for four main reasons:
    (1) so many of the predictions of common descent have been confirmed from independent areas of science,
    (2) no significant contradictory evidence has yet been found,
    (3) competing possibilities have been contradicted by enormous amounts of scientific data, and
    (4) many other explanations are untestable, though they may be trivially consistent with biological data.
    I'll say it. There are no holes. The evidence at this point is rather overwhelming.

    There are certainly gaps in our knowledge about specifics, but there aren't really any major glaring flaws in the theory that anyone has found and scientifically tested.

  20. #195
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Meh..........yall have at it. This debate about how we all got here, how it all started has been going on since day 1. Its a non winnable debate. I care to observe than participate...........no matter what I say will change anyones mind about what they believe, and vice versa. Just like Mila Kunis being hot.

    Its all a big waste of typing really.

    Meep Meep!!
    I think it is pretty winnable.

    If you really dig, you will find that creationists tend to be outright dishonest in their arguments.

    Read up on logical fallacies, i.e. specific instances of bad logic, all classified according to type, and then read through creationist essays.

    http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

    Pick apart the claims to examine the underlying assumptions and see if they stand up. If someone asserts something, they have to back it up or it is simply an effort to put forth opinion as fact.

    If that link is the *only* thing you read out of all the material I give you, that will give you enough informtion to see who is bull ting you, and who isn't.

    EDIT:
    Just for fun, I will pick apart the whale essay I posted earlier, and show the specific unsupported assertions, distortions of actual science, and bad logic.

    , I can easily do that for a good chunk of creationist stuff. It isn't all that hard.

  21. #196
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    Meh..........yall have at it. This debate about how we all got here, how it all started has been going on since day 1. Its a non winnable debate. I care to observe than participate...........no matter what I say will change anyones mind about what they believe, and vice versa. Just like Mila Kunis being hot.

    Its all a big waste of typing really.

    Meep Meep!!
    Why would you try to change anyone's mind here other than your own?

    If you yourself are comfortable with what you believe, then I'd agree, it's a waste of typing trying to convine anyone else here of anything.

  22. #197
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    I'll say it. There are no holes. The evidence at this point is rather overwhelming.

    There are certainly gaps in our knowledge about specifics, but there aren't really any major glaring flaws in the theory that anyone has found and scientifically tested.
    Gaps = holes, imo.......but I agree with everything you said.

  23. #198
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    I haven't read this whole thread but here's some relevant info in case it hasn't been posted yet.
    http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...ael+cremo&aq=f

    Let me make it clear that I'm an agnostic.
    No, you are an idiot who thinks the Apollo moon landings were faked by NASA.

    Please off back to that thread, either here or in any of the other dozens of forums you push that bull .

  24. #199
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Speaking of logical fallacies:

    Cosmored is not wrong about any given topic, just because he is a about "moon hoaxes". That is what is call an ad hominem attack.

    He is, however, a , who I am reasonably sure has some cognitive problems in a very real psychological sense.

    Take his statements regarding reality with the weight it deserves, and an appropriate level of skepticism.

  25. #200
    Billy Bob
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    Is it possible to believe in everything?? Evolution, ID, AD, Ancient Aliens, The Force, String Theory, etc.....................All I know is that Life is a crazy ride and it wouldn't surprise me if everything turns out to be right or wrong. Lets just enjoy our time on earth and keep our minds open.

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