True fans know Dirk isn't a choke artist. Until Butler's injury, I thought this was the most talented Mavs team since Dirks been there, talented as far as their defensive ability. Getting Chandler was a great move, although, because of big money Hayword riding the pine, an expensive one. The Mavs are still in the picture though, but they need to shore up that 3 spot.
No, things are very easily explained. GMs as a whole make a lot of bad decisions and 9 times out of 10 will draft someone with talent ahead of everything else.
There is a huge difference between paying attention to basketball and being a student of the game. Would YOU want the ball in Kobe's hands in crunchtime, Jamstone? Ahead of CP3, Wade, Manu, Melo, Dirk, and Durant?
Props to you for not knowing the difference between "then" and "than".
The reason we remember MJ passing to Kerr or Paxon or anyone else is because we didn't expect it.
lol
according to the article, the reason we remember any gamewinners kobe made are cause we didn't expect them to go in
I would say the perception of being clutch can be "public opinion" and I think you would agree as much.
Using numbers is not public opinion, but nor is it the end-all, be-all in a discussion of something that can be subjective like "clutchness." Statistics are great, especially for a foundation for an argument, but to rely only on numbers isn't always the best way to go. I think most people agree with that.
Some, sure. A lot, maybe. I don't know. Didn't Kobe hit something like 7 game winning shots last season? Recent history actually supports Kobe's clutchness more than takes away from it, even if you consider game 7 of the NBA Finals. Perception is generally based on something, generally facts. If Kobe only hit one clutch in his entire career and people still talked about his clutchness, then you'd have a point. But even Abbott himself admitted that Kobe having such a large resume of clutch shots helps magnify the perception. It's based on something. Kobe has a lot of made clutch shots in his career.A lot of it is, though.
Maybe about showing no fear, but when it comes to work ethic and improving his game, Kobe is pretty much regarded as the most fanatic about maintaining and improving his game.You could say the same thing about 15 other superstars in the league. You think Blake Griffin (a rookie) would shy away from having the ball in his hands in the final 15 seconds? Manu? Derrick Rose? Melo? Do you think any of these guys would ever think twice before shooting the game winner?
But ok. I'll add to that comment then. Kobe's lack of fear on taking shots doesn't only border, but crosses the line of irrationally. Kobe will take shots even other cold blooded assassin players like Manu or Rose will pass up because the defense forces them to. It's that irrational, illogical confidence and lack of fear for missing or failure that does distinguish Kobe. And, no, it's not really a compliment. Kobe takes horribly dumb shots at time because of the confidence in his talent and skill. Sometimes, it's a really bad thing because he'll ignore wide open teammates. But that's who Kobe is. That's his mentality. That's his confidence. That's his ego. I'm not saying it's a good thing.
Agreed. But Can Joe Shmo attempt a 30 food, fade-away jumper with three guys draped all over him, and still have a legitimate chance to make the shot? Like I just said above, I'm not saying it's a good quality to be like that. But it's that mentality that apparently many NBA GMs find valuable in those crunchtime moments.It's really not hard to get a shot off when you are so self-centered that you think you can hit from 28 feet out when you have open teammates on the 3 point line. Joe Schmoe from the local YMCA could get off half-court shots if he wanted to without getting them blocked, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.
Disagree.If 1,000,000 people say a dumb thing, it is still a dumb thing. The volume of people saying something give no weight to it's authenticity if they cannot back up their opinions with SOME kind of scientific facts. The NBA is still functioning in the post-Jordan era, and as a result people still look to the SG with the most star power as a "go-to guy" above everyone else.
If 1,000,000 Laker fans with little knowledge of say a dumb thing, it's a still a dumb thing. If 27 or 28 (or however many it was) NBA GMs says something you think is dumb, then reconsider. GMs who are paid a lot of money to analyze the game, evaluate players, and build successful teams. If the vast majority of those people say something you think is dumb, maybe it's not as dumb as you think. There's more weight when those GMs say something regarding NBA basketball than if you took 1,000,000 people in say some island in the Pacific who have never watched the NBA before. There is a difference. It's not just any random group of people saying such.
Sure, it's mystique. But it is built on "some" empirical evidence. Did Kobe not hit a bunch of game-winners last season? Has Kobe not had huge games and hit huge shots and made huge plays in the clutch before? You choose to focus on the percentage of his success versus the sheer number of successful clutch plays he's had. By sheer number, and this is even specifically touched upon in the article, Kobe's resume is the most impressive when it comes to crunchtime shots. The sheer number. It's not just a perception. It is skewed, but it is based on empirical evidence. You just view it one way. There are other ways to view it than just by looking at FG% in those situations. Other factors include how big the game was when he made the clutch shots, the opponents he made them against, the type of defense being played on him, other cir stances in the game.But it's a mystique. It's not built on actual empirical evidence, but rather a skewed perception.
If you look at just the "numbers," Kobe's 81 point performance trumps his 62 point performance against the Mavs in three quarters. However, when you look at the opponents and the fact Kobe put up 62 in three quarters against an elite team, most people on these boards would agree and have agreed that the 62 was more impressive.
Numbers, statistics don't always tell the entire story.
4th best option, maybe. But with the exception of Manu, I bet the other 3 would defer to Kobe. We already saw that movie in 2008 in Beijing.If you put Wade, Melo, Kobe, Manu, and Chris Paul on the court together, and you need a bucket to win the game with 10 seconds left, Kobe is going to be, at best, the 4th guy to get the ball.
You talked earlier about skewed perception. Kobe "simply refusing to pass in the dying moments" is also a skewed perception. When Kobe had ultimate confidence in his teammates, he has been a willing passer. Do you forget the alley-oop pass to Shaq against the Blazers? How about several other times during their threepeat run where Kobe drew in defenses and kicked out to guys like Fisher and Fox for the open jumper. This very year and even some last year, Kobe has made efforts to passing the ball to his teammates for wide open jumpers when the game was on the line. Artest and Farmar last year notably were given opportunities. We all know that Kobe has no problem passing it to Fisher if he's open in clutch situations. Is Kobe usually selfish? Yes. Absolutely. Is he "NEVER" willing to pass it to teammates in clutch situations? Skewed perception.The fact that he simply refuses to pass in the dying moments of a loss shows how many GMs out there are idiots when they say they'd give him the ball, because he could be triple-teamed and would rather take a falling 26 footer than pass the ball to someone who's got a much better look at it. You can argue the intangibles all you want, and if Kobe was CLOSE (say, within percentage point or two), then you might be able to make a convincing argument for him.
This "perception" and "reputation" that Kobe will never pass to teammates started around 2003 or 2004 when Kobe got tired of Shaq getting all the glory. Kobe was selfish. He tried to force supers om on himself. He wasn't content being a Scottie Pippen. Then this "perception" and "reputation" manifested itself further after Shaq left because Kobe had Smush Parker, Luke Walton, Brian Cook, and Chris Mihm to pass it to. Sure he had Odom and Butler for one year. But those guys weren't the ones always being left open in crunchtime. Not saying Kobe isn't an egomaniacal and selfish player. He is. I'm saying as much as you are claiming skewed perception over his clutchness, there is skewed perception over how you view him as well.
Don't disagree with this last paragraph. It has plenty of truth in it. It's not the only reason why GMs would take Kobe. But I'm sure it carries part of the logic.But he's not. And the NBA (at it's worst) is still little more than a 1 on 1 or 2 on 2 contest with a bunch of decent players and scrubs thrown in the mix. When Jordan superseded his team and the entire league, he put instilled an almost mythological reverence for the individual, and Kobe is the ultimate embodiment of that. GMs look at him as the go-to because he carries that alpha-male me vs. the entire world status better than anyone. But basketball is a STILL a team game, and a guy who refuses to pass the ball in crunch time means it's a bad decision to give him the ball, GMs be damned.
Does anyone remember when Tim Duncan passed out to Jacko for the three (a few times) in 05? Spurs fans do, but everyone remembers MJ to Kerr or Paxon and when. Just sayin'.
Drafting talent is not the same thing as evaluating proven NBA talent.
GMs' evaluation of Kobe in the clutch is not the same thing as evaluating a college player or international teenager.
I take Kobe over each of those players with Dirk being very close behind. Dirk would present almost always present the best mismatch to exploit and would be able to get a quality shot against almost anyone with a good chance to make it. I take Kobe because he will get a shot off against anyone, against any defense, and still have a good chance to make it. I like his mentality and confidence in those situations. That's who I want to have the ball in his hands with the game on the line in crunchtime to win the game.There is a huge difference between paying attention to basketball and being a student of the game. Would YOU want the ball in Kobe's hands in crunchtime, Jamstone? Ahead of CP3, Wade, Manu, Melo, Dirk, and Durant?
That being said, I wouldn't mind having any of the guys you mentioned have the ball in their hands in crunchtime with the game on the line.
LOL I expected this to be here after i read the article ...
I dont think henry is a hater ...or that his article is way off base. I just hate the criteria he uses. I also dont think you can make these comparisons when a player like melo or Paul have been in few big games and have played a lot less seasons. Really what he should say these guys are more EFFICIENT in the clutch ...and I don't disagree.
GM's also do dumb stuff and though I think they are more credible and knowledgable than abbott, doesnt men they are right either. Manu for example is not listed. would anyone on here spur fan or not disagree that manu is almost as clutch as kobe?
And let me officially LOL at:
Webber, KG, eddie jones, Karl malone, Glen robinson, Felton, Francis, above them both.
1. Horry and Shaq used to clown Eddie jones for shrinking inthe clutch. part of why he was traded for Glen rice.
2. Many on here have riducled Karl malone for choking especially when the Malone vs. duncan debate comes up (ditto KG)
3. the rest of these guys havent amounted to squat so I won't waste a "bar" on those scrubs.
I agree with duncan, Lebron (to an extent) Melo, Paul ARE clutch ...and afew others. But this is a perfect example of why stats with no context are useless. The writer tried ...but just looking at this list is hilarious ...thanks for the laughs ...
Well even if those were the only three times he did that, that still gives him three times as many assists as Kobe.
lol 1
For the record, I have no problem with the article. this was his opinion he did some research and culled together some others and came to his conclusion. As Ashy said kobe has made plenty and missed plenty more ...so dont dispute any of this.
I just disagree with his premise. I read him pretty regularly and when he first brought this up he said if the fate of the universe rested on one player to take one shot he would use stats to make that choice. And his stats make him choose Melo. Really would even Nuggs fans choose melo?
In many walks of life that makes sense to just choose stats i just think sports and emotions, who do you trust or fear with a game on the line ...that matters.
But i cant fault him for that. Hie s a stat guy more power to him.
Me I want the guy who has done it the most. I would not choose a stock broker who has hit on 3 out 5 stoocks over the guy that hit on 30 out of 100. sure the first brooker has a better percentage ...but I want the guy who is proven and has done it more often.
would i take MJ over Kobe in that scenario? Of course! would i take horry? No even though he may have a great % i want the proven winners give me MJ, Kobe, Magic Bird etc i dont care what the stats say ...
LOL using Henry's calculated stats to make an emotional rant about Kobe ...nice job CR!!!
I'll say this, Kobe is a clutch player, but he's not the clutchest. I'd take Ray Allen and Wade given the chance. But in the sake of fainess I'll also say the lists of players and its according percentage should not be used to determine a players true clutch value. Defensive plays and/or FT's are not taken into consideration. Abbott reached here and he sure did yank a lot of chains so he got his hits and a lot of traffic, mission accomplished.
I think what makes Kobe clutch is he doesn't defer from the idea of failure or missing a shot, his preparation and determination is top notch and he did made a whole lot of GW shots in his career so this is not a guy who just shoots with no returning dividends. Not a lot of player can miss that many shot and approach the next game winning opportunity as a fresh one. But what Kobe made great in the eyes of many also made his resume less impressive.
People should take note that players like Jalen Rose, Shawn Marion, & Raymond Felton are above players like Lebron, Kobe and even Ray Allen. That's pretty damning and disproportional IMO. Even Damon Stoudemire & Gelnn Robinson are above Kevin Garnett. I don't know when did you watch NBA but before KG became a Celtic, he was one of the best closers in the game and I'd pick him over, say Glenn Robinson for a GW shot 10 times out of 10.
Abbott made some great and objective points but he also had poor execution on the others. As I've mentioned before, using Phil's book in 2004 though true is not the best tool to prove a point. Its 2011 and the scar between the Kobe-Jackson relationship has somewhat healed. Additionally, using Kobe's failed GW shot as a rookie in 97 to also prove your claim is another failure.
But the truth remains. Kobe is a ballhog and he's the type of player that will not going to pass in closing seconds (something we've all known for more than a decade) although recently he has learned to trust his teammates more, especially Ron Artest & Derek Fisher and last but not the least he's not the best closer in the game and never has been despite what GM's and countless NBA players wishes us to believe. That being said, there are only 2-3 players I'd pick if I want to close the game in todays game. Kobe's right there but if I want to just win a game without the added flair, I'd take Wade, Ray Allen & Paul Pierce.
Last edited by ChrisRichards; 01-28-2011 at 04:37 PM.
Though i might not agree with every line, this is the best and most balanced post I have seen you make since i have been here. I dont think he is a ballhog (especially now) ... but i think Kobe's supreme confidence in his own talent (ego) makes him take tough shots ...and that includes in the clutch as well. I have said many time I dont mind the number of shots Kobe takes especially in the clutch ...i just wished he took less difficult ones. Problem is he makes them sometimes so he keeps taking them ...
Kobe just needs to flip the script from time to time, just a little bit and the Lakers IMO will be harder to stop. With the game on the line and the Lakers down by 2-3, every coach and defender out there knows Kobe is going to close, so stopping him on game winning situations is not that hard.
oh shiznit..grammer pulice in da houze
Machine your girl went on weigh chers?
As long as it's:::
Kobe: 5
Duncan: 4
I'm fine.
I saw "last post Giuseppe" and already knew it was going to be about 5 > 4 before I even entered.
You need a new line old man!
Oh, you can count on it, daddy-O. I'm gonna pound this like trout meat. This, The Skunker & Neal raping that vomiting asshole.
Let us proceed...
Uh, uh. Only way I'll stop is if The Princess so ordains it.
Otherwise, go back and get your f'in shine box.
Serious question: did you read the article Cubby? If so what is your honest opinion of it? I'm guessing you went the Machine route ie; labeled the author a hater and dismissed it outright.
At the very least I think it shows that Kobe would be well served to pass the ball at end of game situations every once in a while to make the Lakers offense less predictable.
om nom nom!machine your girl went on weigh chers?
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