Cir stances might dictate who you would take though. If the team defending Ray Allen was doing a great night all night slipping or switching picks so Ray Allen couldn't get the basketball with a clean pass for a jumper, if he had to actually create his own shot off the dribble, would you take him in that situation over Kobe? If you're talking about coming off a couple staggered screens for a corner three pointer and you know he can get open against that defense and the team needed a three pointer, I'd take Ray Allen over Kobe in that situation. In most other scenarios, I'd take Kobe over Ray.
Similarly, if the game was a three point deficit and the team needed a three-pointer just to tie, I'd take Kobe over Wade. It's not that Wade can't make a game-tying three pointer, but I'd feel better about Kobe shooting it than Wade. But if you know the other team has been defending the jumper great all night and you needed a sure shot at the rim against a good interior defensive team, I like Wade actually being able to finish an and-one opportunity better than Kobe because Wade has a knack of making tough and sometimes weird shots through contact. I think cir stances like score and how much time is left and who is defending him and what is required to win the game all factor in who you'd want to win the game.
Kobe might not be the #1 choice in every single scenario you can think of in clutch situations, but he's high on the list in probably all of them. Need a three pointer, I'll take Kobe over most players that have higher three point percentages in crunchtime aside from maybe Ray Allen. With less than a second on the clock, I'll take Kobe in that situation. Down by only 1 with plenty of time for a dribble drive or a pull up jumper, give me Kobe over most right by Wade, Manu, and Dirk. Down two and a foul, I'll take Kobe at the free throw line up there after guys like Nash, Ray Allen, Dirk, and Chauncey.
Situation dictates. But you wouldn't feel uncomfortable with Kobe taking a shot in almost any clutch scenario, except maybe in the NBA Finals against a top defensive team. Lol.
Pretty good summation. Don't necessarily agree with the end, but appreciate and respect that opinion. I already mentioned how different cir stances might change your mind about having Wade or Ray Allen as your guy in crunchtime. But I don't begrudge that opinion. Pierce is a pretty good call too. That being said, if you can think of all the clutch players in the league, including those you mentioned plus guys like Dirk and Manu and Chris Paul, it's not like you would overwhelmingly feel they should have the ball before Kobe in crunchtime. It's not like a huge difference, at least in my opinion. If you prefer Ray Allen because of his jumper, I can see that. If you prefer Wade because his ability to finish at the rim or make circus shots through contact better, I can understand that as well. If you prefer Dirk because of his height and the height of his release making it pretty much impossible to defend, I certainly can understand that. I don't think it's a huge difference though. As you suggested, regardless of his shooting percentage, Kobe would still be among the top guys you'd want in those crunchtime situations.But the truth remains. Kobe is a ballhog and he's the type of player that will not going to pass in closing seconds (something we've all known for more than a decade) although recently he has learned to trust his teammates more, especially Ron Artest & Derek Fisher and last but not the least he's not the best closer in the game and never has been despite what GM's and countless NBA players wishes us to believe. That being said, there are only 2-3 players I'd pick if I want to close the game in todays game. Kobe's right there but if I want to just win a game without the added flair, I'd take Wade, Ray Allen & Paul Pierce.
Really good post, CR.
Uh Uh. Absolutely not on my watch. Your ass has no right. After The Extinction you are nothing round these parts and I'll be damned if you ever forget that on my watch. I will ferociously and tirelessly be there to make sure you remember that damn fact.
You are Extinct.
That's exactly where you're wrong. The chance for the shot to go in is really awful. Just look at his FG% in the clutch.
Fair enough. A "good chance" compared to any other player taking the same shot with the same defense on them. Kobe takes a lot of tough shots where he should just pass the ball instead to an open teammate. But if he's going to shoot a tough shot with great defense on him, he has a "good chance" of making it compared to any other player taking that same exact shot in the same exact situation.
But selecting Kobe you're making it too easy to the defense to predict everything. He's gonna shoot, ok, just double or triple team him and that's it.
You give the ball to Manu or any other player, and there's that sense of impredictability that can destroy the defense balance, and in the end, can make you win the game (no matter who effectively shoots the last ball).
Little disappointed it took 4,500 words for Jamstone to get around to slobbing Kobe's knob. We all knew it was going to happen sooner or later, he should have just got it out of the way early and saved us all the time.
I think Jam is underrating the ability of NBA players to chuck up bad shots and then call it a "mindset".
No. It's a hit piece written before he rang at 4 & 5.
I don't have to read it. Bryant made sure we didn't have to.
Fair. I'll put it to you this way. If you ask me who I wanted to take and make a really tough shot against good defense in the clutch, Kobe is high on the list. If you ask me who I wanted to make "the right basketball play" whether it be take a relatively good and open shot or pass it to an open teammate, Kobe would not be anywhere near the top of the list.
Brool cory sto.
A lot of NBA player can chuck up bad shots. Kobe can actually make some of those bad shots.
What Abbott really needs to add to this piece is the effect the decision making has on the outcome for clutchness. In other words, don't just show us if he made the shot, give us what happened if he passed off the ball off.
And besides, the whole clutch thing, while held up high as an amazing stat, I'd prefer the old Spurs way of just winning the game outright early on, that way...there isn't a need for clutch. But alas, that's not the Bean boy's way. In the world according to Phil, he has said that Bean keeps the game close on purpose so he can look bigger when the situation and time calls for it. I do admire the confidence, it's borderline iness but, clutch enough or truthfully, not clutch enough, the guy has the gonads to take a bad shot. I prefer the guy that gives the team more options late but hey...polarizing is as polarizing does.
I have to admit I was a little surprised at his first post in this thread, in which he said the article was good at showing how unclutch Kobe was and how he ruined the Lakers offense. Really all Kobe needs to do is pass the ball once in a while to throw opponents off balance in end of game scenarios. He's got some good teammates, its like he still doesn't trust them but as the article shows, he isn't such a sure thing himself.
You think he wrote this article in 2008?
Reading the article in the shadow of 4 & 5 would be an insult to Bryant. I won't do it.
I'd a read it, and taken my sandwich in the finest traditions had he not rang 4 & 5. But, you're out of your mind to think I'd read it now.
I walked the floors on that night last June, fretted & ruminated over certain calamity. But, if that glorious sob can go 6 for 24 and not be seduced by the lure of relief of the final buzzer (win or lose), I can certainly categorically refuse to read words written for his demise, 4 & 5 withstanding.
Cubby with the nonsense. Per the usual
Of course he wrote it before 4 & 5. His turn on his editor's carousel was not of any concern in the Summer of '08. Bryant would wait as he turned on the spit, skewered by the Celtics, a total failure like Magic almost a quarter century earlier in the Summer of '84 when the Celtics were done with him in like manner. But, like Magic, Bryant would grab his hammer, his tong, his jacks and his timbers and he started back down.
Luva knew. I knew. Fish knew. And Bryant, he knew that Florida in '09 wouldn't do it, even when we did it. So at 6 for 24, he got it in sight, and then launched himself not once, but, three times into the front of the rim and ended it.
- "I don't forget anything."
Perhaps, but, I ain't O & Forever.
You'll take '06 to your grave. And you know it.
Your adorable Cubby, adorable!
I exist.
I didn't read the entire article, but anybody that has closely followed the NBA for years, knows that Kobe's reputation as a "clutch assassin" is one of the most overplayed NBA fabrications..to be fair, almost everything that is Kobe-related is overplayed and overhyped by the media and "NBA people"..
However, Kobe is CLEARLY clutch..Kobe's %s are higher than the league average, and while the numbers aren't impressive at first glance, the amount of shots he takes will generally lead to any player having a lower % than you would expect..by following all the stat databases and scouting tools that I have, Kobe's production actually does go up in clutch time..so while the reputation is certainly overplayed, Kobe is still a clutch player..
There have been numerous articles/research projects that examine "clutch time" in the NBA..the consistent trend in these articles has been that Kobe is clearly not the best clutch shooter in the NBA, he probably isn't even in the top 5..the other one is that Kobe forces up more shuts in clutch time than any other player, often ignoring the open teammate, which obviously isn't news to most people..
Also, while it's nice to have these numbers, the definition of "clutch" varies, and most of these articles have criteria that doesn't appeal to everybody..
The "clutch" argument is probably the most difficult and subjective arguments..nobody ever talks about clutch blocks or rebounds..rarely talked about is the clutch assist, unless it comes from a big-name player..a lot of people don't even believe in "clutch"(I'm not one of them, but there are many non-believers)..
To me, a clutch player is a player that makes the right decision, despite the high amount of pressure in said situation..a player that always wants to take the shot, even though he might miss it..that's all it means to me, in regards to "game winning shots", especially during the regular season..it's an overplayed argument IMO..all these "game winner" stats have different cir stances around them..
The only "clutch player" argument that I fully agree with is referring to a clutch player in regards to his performances in big playoff games..NBA Finals or the biggest series they're going to play in the playoffs..series-clinching games in any series', not just the NBA Finals..obviously game 7s..
Under that criteria, Kobe does qualify as one of the most clutch players in the NBA..he's a good playoff performer, particularly before the Finals..he has led a team to multiple NBA les..his performances during the NBA Finals, particularly his series' in 2008 and 2004, lower his value as a clutch player from a historic standpoint, his lack of a dominant NBA Finals(IMO) also works against him as well..
- I also find it humorous how badly Laker fans are taking to this..not necessarily in this thread, but the fans on other forums, particularly RealGM..the Laker fans on RealGM are having a meltdown about this, ranting about bias and whatever else..
- The access that fans now have to advanced stats and scouting tools has helped demonstrate the incompetence and overrated knowledge from NBA front offices..being an NBA-level basketball player doesn't make you a great NBA mind or a great evaluator of talent(since most people with NBA jobs were former players or coaches on some high level of basketball, not necessarily the NBA, or had connections to other NBA people)..
- What's up with all the basketball talk here lately?..must be because certain people were on hiatus or aren't posting as much..
If only Bryant hadn't rung at 4 & 5 the story wouldn't had to sit on the shelf for two years.
But, Bryant did ring at 4 & 5.
And there ain't nary one thing you can do about it.
Balls to miss and fail. Good thing Kobe always had an excellent cast to bail his ass out.
Though Gasol never won a playoff game until Kobe took him in. Odom and Artest never rang until Kobe took them in.
The constant? Kobe.
There's a reason why Henry Abbot is getting paid a lot of money to write while Jamstone isn't. That said, Abbott>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jamstone
How many shots did "Mr. Clutch" miss against the Queens at the end of tonight's game?
01:53 Bryant Jump Shot: Missed
01:13 Bryant 3pt Shot: Missed
00:32.3 Bryant Free Throw 1 of 2 (37 PTS)
00:32.3 Bryant Free Throw 2 of 2 (38 PTS)
00:20.9 Bryant 3pt Shot: Missed
00:08.9 Bryant 3pt Shot: Missed
00:02.1 Bryant 3pt Shot: Missed
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