Unions vs. Republicans...

[boutons_deux]

And according to a Wisconsin police union president, whether the police agree or disagree with their governor's politics, they would "absolutely" carry out any order given to them ... even if that order included using force against their fellow Americans gathered in peaceful protest.


http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/02/2...lls-raw/print/

[Yonivore]

I just don't think that "sick days" are some workplace extravagance. Teachers are paid on salary, so for every sick day they take, there's a decent chance they might be working late as well. It's not like teachers get overtime.

I mean, it's sick days we are talking about, not stock options.

I think you're making too much out of the sick leave comment. No one is suggesting sick leave is extravagant. What (as I took it) the sign says it that public employees (teachers included) are whining about losing things that most of the work force don't enjoy while taking for granted things others don't take for granted...such as sick leave, pensions, and retirement benefits; the latter two of which are pretty much up to private sector employees to provide on their own.

I understand people think they're making too much money. But if teachers lose those benefits, won't that attract less teachers to the career field? Are the citizens ok with that? Are those teachers particularly unskilled?

If the proposed legislation becomes law, teachers and other Wisconsin public employees will still be making more than the average Wisconsin and they'll enjoy better benefits and retirement packages than the average Wisconsin. Some would argue, they'd still be overpaid, as well but, that's for the teachers to decide.

Also, those teachers took that job under the assumption they would receive those benefits. Pretty unfair to cut them now, unless you grandfather in those laws. I can tell you if the gov cut military retirement you'd have a lot of pissed off soldiers in the middle of their career.

When the money runs out, it runs out; cuts now or nothing later. The point being made is the current structure is unsustainable. Period. Wisconsin cannot afford the deals that were struck. Contracts won't matter when the well is dry...so, while it may be viewed as unfair, some would argue that 1) a little pain now will avoid a great deal of pain later on and, 2) these are deals the government had no business entering into, to begin with; which, I believe the collective bargaining, union voting rules, and automatic deduction of dues provisions are intended to address.

No more having unions take the dues they garnish from employee wages to lobby the politicians that voted in the ridiculous en lements to begin with.

And, you want to talk about honoring agreements now? Now, after the federal government completely abandoned the financial obligations GM had to its stockholders in favor of the unions?

Don't make me laugh. On this fight...and, if Governor Walker prevails (which is why Obama is so interested -- and acting so unpresidential)...on future fights, unions and ridiculously compensated public employees stand to be brought back to earth.

I think that's a good thing. I understand you may disagree. Oh well.

[Yonivore]

Ooops! Looks like public union employees aren't the only ones jeopardizing their careers in this foolish exercise...

Statement Regarding UW Health Physicians

There are reports on both social media and news websites that a number of UW Health physicians were signing "medical excuse" notes for protesters at the Capitol on Feb. 19. This involves a few individuals out of the nearly 1,300 physicians at UW Health.

These UW Health physicians were acting on their own and without the knowledge or approval of UW Health. These charges are very serious and in response, University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and Public Health and University of Wisconsin Medical Foundation, the UW Health en ies that employ the physicians, have immediately launched an investigation of the reported behavior.

The investigation will identify which UW Health physicians were involved and whether their behavior cons uted violations of medical ethics or University of Wisconsin and UW Health policies and work rules. The investigation and any potential future action will follow the established procedures of the University of Wisconsin. Any future disciplinary action taken will be considered a personnel matter and will be treated with the confidentiality required by University of Wisconsin policies.

[George Gervin's Afro]

who does yoni only mention teachers in his union bashing? Do you think he knows firefighters and the police are protesting this as well?

[Yonivore]

who does yoni only mention teachers in his union bashing? Do you think he knows firefighters and the police are protesting this as well?

In the post just prior to this one, I refer to them as "public employee unions." Teachers have distinguished themselves in this protest (and seem to be a particularly insidious bunch) but, to be sure -- all public union employees of Wisconsin are in the fray.

What's your point?

[Winehole23]

who does yoni only mention teachers in his union bashing? Do you think he knows firefighters and the police are protesting this as well?

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/show...8&postcount=92

[ElNono]

Do you think he knows firefighters and the police are protesting this as well?

Are they protesting? That would be interesting seeing this reform doesn't affect them at this time...

[George Gervin's Afro]

Are they protesting? That would be interesting seeing this reform doesn't affect them at this time...

I made the comment after seeing them walking with the protesters...

[ElNono]

I made the comment after seeing them walking with the protesters...

Fair enough... I wonder what Walker thinks about that...

[Yonivore]

Fair enough... I wonder what Walker thinks about that...

What should he think? As long as they aren't playing hooky or using state resources, why should he care?

[ElNono]

What should he think? As long as they aren't playing hooky or using state resources, why should he care?

Because he cut a deal with them so their collective bargaining rights wouldn't be touched, unlike the other public unions...
I'm not sure the exception also applies to retirement/healthcare though...

But it's a huge concession nonetheless... it basically means their pay wouldn't be tied to the CPI...

[Yonivore]

A Brief, Illustrated History of the Public Sector Unions That, Together With The Democrat Party, Are Waging War on the Taxpayer

[Yonivore]

Because he cut a deal with them so their collective bargaining rights wouldn't be touched, unlike the other public unions...
I'm not sure the exception also applies to retirement/healthcare though...

But it's a huge concession nonetheless... it basically means their pay wouldn't be tied to the CPI...

Q&A: Walker said benefit cuts better than job cuts

Why exclude firefighters and police officers, and why include corrections officers?

We treat fire and police historically differently because they perform very different jobs. Fire and police protection, if you don't do anything else, that's the utmost priority. Practically speaking in terms of the contingency plans, they're very much integrated around having the support of local law enforcement and fire departments. We have contingency plans to allow us to make up for any change in terms of work shortage or anything else that might happen on the state level.

Looking at the bottom line in terms of what we need to back that up, what we need in terms of the National Guard, when it's at a correction facility. We can handle all that. We don't have the capacity if every fire and police department in the state had a problem.

I don't expect any interruption in service. I want to stress that. We prepare for the worst and expect and hope for the best.

Not sure I agree with his rationale but, the question has been asked of the Governor and answered.

[ElNono]

I don't particularly like public sector unions, but I do wonder why this wasn't outlawed when the GOP had full control of both the executive and congress, especially if it's so damaging to taxpayers as advertised...

[George Gervin's Afro]

The GOP has declared war on teachers... nothing new

[ElNono]

Q&A: Walker said benefit cuts better than job cuts

Not sure I agree with his rationale but, the question has been asked of the Governor and answered.

I don't necessarily hold it against Walker that he cut that deal (although what's good for the goose should be good for the gander).

I just can't see him being happy to see those guys protesting seeing they're seemingly unaffected by this reform.

[ElNono]

On the other hand, I can see where the unions might be afraid that the exclusion is only a temporary measure...

[Marcus Bryant]

The GOP has declared war on teachers... nothing new

True. The leaves and not the roots.

[Marcus Bryant]

Though "war" as in you have to contribute something for your otherwise generous taxpayer-funded benefits is a bit much.

[Marcus Bryant]

Further, why aren't we burning down the entire American educational system as it is? Often we see reports, in excruciating detail how miserable the performance of this monstrosity is, agree that something must change, and then...nothing, other than continuing to shovel piles of money its way. If pure funding solves all problems, American K-12 education would be the envy of the world. The pedagogues of Wisconsin should have their compensation tied to some reasonable measure of success in instruction. Of course, judging by their reaction to rather reasonable proposals in light of budgetary constraints, this wouldn't go over well.

That's the real story here, one that nobody cares to entertain.

[Wild Cobra]

Right, but those items usually already have sales tax. How would you propose to make up the lost money from the income tax? Would tax rates on things like TVs just shoot up to 200% or something?

No. They would need an approximate 20% tax on them besides the state sales tax.

[Wild Cobra]

I didn't, I just the thought the sign was dumb. The author of the sign implies how good the teachers have it, but "sick days"? Don't most jobs have that? And don't a good amount of teachers get retirement and/or pension?

LOL...

You missed the point.

[Wild Cobra]

Not sure when bizarro boutons will get back to it, so I'll take a shot:

Yes, sales taxes (along with the "VAT" type taxes) would be VERY volatile in downturns.

Many states already have income taxes, so the answer to the second question is yes as well.

So are income taxes when people lose jobs.

Any tax system is volatile. Blame the states and federal government for spending all they can during the good times, then try to squeeze more out of us when the economy tanks. During good times, there is no excuse for deficits. the debt should be paid down. not grow. Period.

[ElNono]

Further, why aren't we burning down the entire American educational system as it is? Often we see reports, in excruciating detail how miserable the performance of this monstrosity is, agree that something must change, and then...nothing, other than continuing to shovel piles of money its way. If pure funding solves all problems, American K-12 education would be the envy of the world. The pedagogues of Wisconsin should have their compensation tied to some reasonable measure of success in instruction. Of course, judging by their reaction to rather reasonable proposals in light of budgetary constraints, this wouldn't go over well.

That's the real story here, one that nobody cares to entertain.

The real question is how you do measure success in a way that isn't conductive to gaming the system to obtain more funding. You see children today 'coached' by teachers to pass a test so the school can get more/keep the funding. It's literally coaching to pass a test, not actually educating.

Then you have the fact that the system is modeled basically to allow kids to do whatever they want. It doesn't help that parents don't seemingly want to do parenting anymore either. It's definitely a complex problem without an easy solution.

[Wild Cobra]

The GOP has declared war on teachers... nothing new

It's not a war on teachers, but the realization that pension systems and the really nice benefit packages cannot continue. They exceed what you find in the private sector. On top of that, nobody is asking for current employed to give up what they have, only new hires not getting as great of deals. With life expectancies what they are, to work 30 years and get 100% your wages and live another 40...

Get real.

Who pays for it?