Dirk v 'Melo

[Killakobe81]

I get how most Mav fans are with Dirk. I get it because he and Dave have both been unfairly labeled as being soft or chokers in their respective careers - they also both happen to be great guys beloved by their fan bases.

I'm not comparing them as players or in their greatness, but in their roles as being the No. 1 on a championship team. Fact of the matter is, and this ain't all that easy to say or write (but I believe it to be true), neither are No. 1 go-to guys for a champion. They both needed or need to have another go-to scorer on the post or on the perimeter that can get into the paint. Both Dave and Dirk's offense relied too much on the jumper and/or free throw line (teams could zone up Dave to take away his driving lanes in the playoffs to force him into the jumper more than one would like).

It's not like neither of them weren't really close to being No. 1 go-to guys, it's that they were so close without being it that it cast them in roles they just weren't suited to play. Thus the unfair criticism - and protective fan bases that come out of the woodworks to defend their honor and champion each of their causes . . .

David was better all-around player but Dirk was more "clutch" than David. Even though both were "finesse" on offense (especially Dirk) I think dirk has been much better in late game situations ...the first round loss to GSW is the only true meltdown ... IMHO ...

[Brazil]

Dirk by a mile too, he lead the mavs during a decade of +50 W. Melo has not that kind of visit card and he is not performing specially well in POs.

The other point is the "Dirk is a liability in defense" legend. Dirk is no Tim Duncan but IMHO he is a very decent defender, he is not the toughest guy on one on one but he plays good team defense, his transition is good, he is clever and knows where to be positionned. You just need to pair him with the right guy. Chandler is a very good fit for him and the result was one of the best Defending during large stretches this season.

[Phillip]

The other point is the "Dirk is a liability in defense" legend. Dirk is no Tim Duncan but IMHO he is a very decent defender, he is not the toughest guy on one on one but he plays good team defense, his transition is good, he is clever and knows where to be positionned. You just need to pair him with the right guy. Chandler is a very good fit for him and the result was one of the best Defending during large stretches this season.

+1

well put. Dirk definitely is not an ideal defender, but he generally plays solid team defense, usually is good about being in proper position with the various defensive schemes he plays in, and you can tell that the defense suffers without his presence, because simply having that size and length instantly makes the defense a bit tougher to attack.

but they key here is Chandler. any team that has a guy who can man the paint at an elite level, will instantly make every defender on the team considerably better. pretty much all of the best defenders in NBA history, always had someone who manned the middle well, or a great team defense concept, focused on clogging the lane effectively. if the middle is protected well, anyone will look exponentially better on defense. this is why I think people knock Nash too much for his defense as well. He's not a great defender by any means (like Dirk), but if he had a legit interior defender, he wouldn't look nearly as bad as he does. and people forget quickly how guys like Magic and Bird were actually pretty bad defenders like Dirk and Nash, but due to the great interior defenses they had, they didnt end up giving up quite so much on the defensive end.

[jjktkk]

+1

well put. Dirk definitely is not an ideal defender, but he generally plays solid team defense, usually is good about being in proper position with the various defensive schemes he plays in, and you can tell that the defense suffers without his presence, because simply having that size and length instantly makes the defense a bit tougher to attack.

but they key here is Chandler. any team that has a guy who can man the paint at an elite level, will instantly make every defender on the team considerably better. pretty much all of the best defenders in NBA history, always had someone who manned the middle well, or a great team defense concept, focused on clogging the lane effectively. if the middle is protected well, anyone will look exponentially better on defense. this is why I think people knock Nash too much for his defense as well. He's not a great defender by any means (like Dirk), but if he had a legit interior defender, he wouldn't look nearly as bad as he does. and people forget quickly how guys like Magic and Bird were actually pretty bad defenders like Dirk and Nash, but due to the great interior defenses they had, they didnt end up giving up quite so much on the defensive end.

Dirk and Dallas are still looking for their "McHale".

[Phillip]

Dirk and Dallas are still looking for their "McHale".

not sure if you are talking about a guy who just scores by low-post-up offense, or by a #2 scoring option. I assume its the latter. Hopefully that can be Roddy.

[jjktkk]

not sure if you are talking about a guy who just scores by low-post-up offense, or by a #2 scoring option. I assume its the latter. Hopefully that can be Roddy.

Correct, but if you could have both....

[The 4cc Dictionary]

Dirk and Dallas are still looking for their "McHale".

ha! i wouldn't buy det for a dollar!

[Phillip]

Correct, but if you could have both....

It would be cool if the Mavs could get Nene. I think he would be a better guy for long term to get, but for right now, I think the perfect fit would be either Prince, Gerald Wallace, or SJax. They all bring different things to the table though. I think Prince would be the easiest overall fit with the team, Wallace fits the biggest needs (strong, athletic defender who attacks relentlessly on offense), and SJax has the potential for most reward but is also the most risky.

[jjktkk]

It would be cool if the Mavs could get Nene. I think he would be a better guy for long term to get, but for right now, I think the perfect fit would be either Prince, Gerald Wallace, or SJax. They all bring different things to the table though. I think Prince would be the easiest overall fit with the team, Wallace fits the biggest needs (strong, athletic defender who attacks relentlessly on offense), and SJax has the potential for most reward but is also the most risky.

If SJAX is motivated, he would be ideal. And going to a contender, he would be.

[Phillip]

If SJAX is motivated, he would be ideal. And going to a contender, he would be.

Yeah, I know in the offseason he really wanted to come home to a Texas team as well.

He hasnt been especially efficient in the past few years, but playing with Dirk and Kidd should make a tremendous difference. Just gotta hope he stays motivated after this year.

[cheguevara]

saying Dirk is a choker therefore Melo > Dirk is re ed.

Melo might not be a full blown choker like Dirk. But he is lazy and dumb. Neither player is going to carry a team in clutch time through multiple series. I'd still take the better and more experienced player. That is Dirk.

[Obstructed_View]

bull ing

no one aside from spurfans complained one bit about officiating during or after the series between the spurs and mavs. it was a poorly officiated series, but for both teams. Timmy and the Spurs got just as many phantom fouls as Dirk and the Mavs got. You can talk about when Dirk stepped on Timmy's foot and barely got touched, resulting in an and-1, then I can site Dirk having a wide-open offensive putback to win a game, that he was unable to do because Parker yanked his jersey and pulled him off balance.

however its quite common for people who are not mavs fans to consider the 2006 Finals to be the most controversial finals in NBA history, as well as other players in the NBA talked about how awful the officiating was in the Finals, including T-Mac who was playing for the Rockets (a Mavs rival) at the time, and had absolutely no reason to be backing the Mavs just for the sake of it. dont forget about Tim Donaghy talking about it being rigged in his book as well.


now the Mavs most definitely could have won the series despite the controversy going on, but it wasnt entirely Dirk's fault that they lost the series. I'd say a much bigger chunk was on the heads of guys like Jason Terry and Josh Howard being ing dumbasses and suddenly forgetting how to hit a wide open 10 foot jumpshot. Dirk consistently went to work on the Heat throughout the series, whether by torching them constantly with difficult shots, or by setting his team up with open looks. Don't forget the amazing fade-away he hit in game 5 that SHOULD have sealed the game, until Wade went sprinting out of control, having no control of the ball nor his body, pretty much punched Dirk in the stomach and somehow got a foul called on Dirk.

Since I've always blamed Pop benching the centers for the loss, I'm happy to chime in here: The exact same thing Spurs fans said about the semis is what the Mavericks fans said during the finals. Duncan got fouled out of a game by having his foot stepped on. Mark Cuban took credit for the officiating until it came back to bite his team.

I've also said this for years: The officials didn't prevent Dirk from hitting free throws in the clutch.

[Blackjack]

bull ing

no one aside from spurfans complained one bit about officiating during or after the series between the spurs and mavs. it was a poorly officiated series, but for both teams. Timmy and the Spurs got just as many phantom fouls as Dirk and the Mavs got. You can talk about when Dirk stepped on Timmy's foot and barely got touched, resulting in an and-1, then I can site Dirk having a wide-open offensive putback to win a game, that he was unable to do because Parker yanked his jersey and pulled him off balance.

Sam Smith, writing for MSNBC, says that if the referees hurt any team in the playoffs last year, it was the Spurs, who lost to Dallas: "I am not one to blame officiating in a loss, especially given the high quality of NBA officials and the horrendous officiating you see elsewhere in basketball, like in the NCAA tournament. But Dallas absolutely stole Games 3 and 4 in Dallas, and I've since had referees tell me they felt the younger officials tend to be intimidated by Cuban and all the referee scrutiny he maintains with former officials on his staff and regular reports to the league. It never became much of an issue because the Spurs remain perhaps the classiest and most professional of organizations, and never complain about apparent inequities. You can imagine what would have happened if the calls went against the Mavs that way."

Just one example ... but you get the picture.

[Juan]

Melo>Dirk not even close.

[Blackjack]

And just to be clear, I don't debate officiating, injury or otherwise in an effort to achieve some kind of satisfaction over past failure. happens.

But if you're going to to try and figure out why certain things happen, whether they could happen again or if certain players are better or more capable of getting you to those lofty heights all teams aspire to (sans any team led by Donald Sterling), you have to look at all of the mitigating factors if you want to get the best read and make your best guess.

As for Dirk v 'Melo, I made the thread because of all the hype 'Melo was getting. All the talk of him being a legit No. 1 and a difference maker for the Knicks. I just don't buy it.

If you're just asking me who I'd rather have to lead my franchise, it's Dirk. No doubt, without hesitation. I don't believe because of his skillset and position he can be your No. 1 and go-to scorer on a championship team because the pieces needed to compliment and compensate for his strengths and weaknesses are almost an impossible find - not impossible, just unlikely to find.

Really, I think you could win a championship with Dirk as your best player, just not your No. 1 and go-to guy down the stretch. Conversely, I think you could win with 'Melo as your go-to guy down the stretch and No. 1 on the pecking order or marquee, but not as your best player.

[Juan]

dirk is aight but melo has the better fadaway jumper. that puts him ahead right there.

[# 1 Troll]

i heard that charlotte is looking to move either or BOTH sjax/wallace. if so, i'd offer butler/stephenson's expirings, plus beaubois and as many picks/cash we can offer in a heartbeat

lol 3.66 gpa in college
lol also full time blood

[Blackjack]

David was better all-around player but Dirk was more "clutch" than David. Even though both were "finesse" on offense (especially Dirk) I think dirk has been much better in late game situations ...the first round loss to GSW is the only true meltdown ... IMHO ...

I specifically said I wasn't comparing Dave and Dirk as players nor is this thread about Dirk being a choker.

There are parallels between the two players (Dave and Dirk), how they are/were treated by their fans and detractors and the roles they had on their respective teams as their franchise players, but that's where the comparison ends.

I'm not gonna turn a Dirk v 'Melo thread into a Dave v Dirk thread. It's irrelevant to this thread and why it came about.

'Melo's why I asked the question.

[Phillip]

I've also said this for years: The officials didn't prevent Dirk from hitting free throws in the clutch.

Yes, Dirk missing ONE key FT in one game is the equivalent of the storm of bogus calls that took place in games 3, 5, and 6.

not to mention that it would have only TIED the game with plenty of time for the Heat to still get a shot off at the other end (or likely a gift-wrapped pair of free-throws)

[Shank]

dirk is aight but melo has the better fadaway jumper. that puts him ahead right there.

Um?

[Juan]

Um?

you heard me . Dirk is da better perimeter defender, i'll give him dat. but melo is better fadaway jumpshooter n better on the block and ft line.

[in2deep]

you realize fadeaways are not really a necessary part of the game right?

[JamStone]

I think they're actually comparable players. Both devastatingly difficult match-ups to defend at their offensive end. Both elite scorers. Neither notably great defenders. Dirk has been around longer and has had multiple great playoff performances. Melo hasn't had any real signature playoff performance. Maybe that game 5 against the Hornets that finally got Denver out of the first round in forever. Perhaps the clinching game 5 against Dallas in round 2 of 2009, but I think Billups was better that game and Melo actually had a better game in game 4 but it was a loss. Melo needs a few more signature playoff performances to catch up to Dirk.

This has been mentioned before, but I do disagree that Dirk is not a good rebounder. Throughout most of his career up until recently, he has been an exceptional defensive rebounder. And that goes largely unnoticed because of criticisms of his defense and because he's not a very good offensive rebounder, his overall rebounding numbers don't look as gaudy. But he's been a great defensive rebounder for much of his career. I also think Melo is underrated as a passer. I think Melo is actually a pretty good passer. But he's almost always played with ball dominating guards, from Andre Miller to Iverson to Chauncey. Melo might not be the most willing passer, but he hasn't really been asked to be a facilitator either, not like Kobe or LeBron or Wade or Joe Johnson or Manu are from off the ball positions. Yet, Melo has averaged about 3 assists a game over his career. Considering he isn't a primary ball handler, I think that's more than solid.

As for being a true #1, I think both are. You don't have to win a championship to be a bonafide #1 guy in the league. Championships are often won with the players you surround superstars with. Guys like Barkley, Ewing, Malone, Dominique were still #1s without the ring. So are Dirk and Melo. You don't need a le to be a true #1. And being a true #1 doesn't mean you'll win one.

As for who is a better #1 to lead a team to a championship, while it's close, I think I'd go with Carmelo based on a couple things. Even though when he's on, Dirk is about as unstoppable on offense as anyone in the league, I like Carmelo's skillset on offense more because he has a higher percentage offense to fall back on. If his midrange jumper isn't falling, he can get in the post where he'll outmuscle defenders going to the rim aggressively. Even with Dirk gets in the mid post and backs his defender down, he still settles for a fade-away jumper most of the time. I like Melo finishing at the rim and having a better chance at going to the line more. And while he has yet to show it, I think Melo has the physical abilities to do more on both offense and defense. I think Melo could be a solid defender, not great or elite, but solid. Whether he will be, who knows? Probably not. And I do think Melo has the skill to be more of a facilitator. With Amare, I do expect Melo to rack up more assists than he's averaged before. That said, I don't think the difference between Melo and Dirk is significant in terms of who I'd rather have as my #1 for a championship run. Dirk has done more and gotten closer. And even now, I think Dirk has a better cast around him on his team to make a legit le run than Carmelo has or does with either the Nuggets or Knicks.

[Juan]

you realize fadeaways are not really a necessary part of the game right?

hardest shot to guard . jordan-sick fadaway-rings. kobe-sick fadaway-rings. wade-sick fadway-rings.

lebron-no fadaway-no rings.

no fadaway=no rings. check the film son

[Shank]

Will Carmelo still be able to perform like he is in 6 years when he's Dirk's age?