Unions vs. Republicans...

[LnGrrrR]

Oh, the poor pedagogues. They should be free to continue to provide substandard schooling without penalty.

I can understand that sentiment. I can also understand the sentiment that the teachers don't want to give up a little cash, in fear that they might later be asked to give up a little more, then a little more, etc etc.

[Marcus Bryant]

I can understand that sentiment. I can also understand the sentiment that the teachers don't want to give up a little cash, in fear that they might later be asked to give up a little more, then a little more, etc etc.

If we were discussing the postal service nobody would give a , imo.

Public schooling is like the USPS, except everyone retains a nostalgic affinity for it. In its current conception, it is ill-suited for these times. The US expends ungodly sums on it and gets horrible results (or perhaps pleasant ones if you design a program to acclimate the population to an industrialized economy).

We should run out the pedagogues, burn the entire thing down, and start over. The real story here is that a slight change in benefits for them is somehow a major story. The real story is that they even continue to maintain employment based on the performance of this system.

[Supergirl]

Where's that article that's going around showing how the five states that BAN workers right to organize are all DEAD LAST in education? It's true. Oh, and Texas is one of those five states.

Does being anti-worker makes people more stupid? Or are stupid people just more likely to be anti-union? You decide.

[Capt Bringdown]

Public schooling is like the USPS, except everyone retains a nostalgic affinity for it. In its current conception, it is ill-suited for these times. The US expends ungodly sums on it and gets horrible results (or perhaps pleasant ones if you design a program to acclimate the population to an industrialized economy).

All fashionable ideas amongst reactionaries. "Horrible results," "ungodly sums" just shows you don't know what you're talking about. Grow up and stop uncritically gulping down Fox News talking points.

We should run out the pedagogues, burn the entire thing down, and start over. The real story here is that a slight change in benefits for them is somehow a major story. The real story is that they even continue to maintain employment based on the performance of this system.

The real story is that you keep continuing to repeat the lie that this is about a slight change in benefits. Can you at least try not to be such a jackass?

[Marcus Bryant]

All fashionable ideas amongst reactionaries. "Horrible results," "ungodly sums" just shows you don't know what you're talking about. Grow up and stop uncritically gulping down Fox News talking points.

Yawn. Grow up and stop addressing points you disagree with by entering your animus about Fox News. I have no idea how that outlet is covering this little charade, nor really care. I'll leave that to simpletons such as yourself.

The real story is that you keep continuing to repeat the lie that this is about a slight change in benefits. Can you at least try not to be such a jackass?

Can I try not to post thoughts that might unsettle you?

Let me think.

Denied.

-MB

[boutons_deux]

AFL-CIO Polls Show Wisconsin Supports Protestors, Opposes Walker




The got the results they wanted.

Anybody got any polls showing the opposite?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

In the post just prior to this one, I refer to them as "public employee unions." Teachers have distinguished themselves in this protest (and seem to be a particularly insidious bunch) but, to be sure -- all public union employees of Wisconsin are in the fray.

What's your point?

I am guessing that its you use the term public employee rather then talk about the cops and firefighters because cop and firefighter bashing puts the right in an unfavorable light.

It goes against the old law and order schtick that Nixon sold us.

Its the same thing as using inflammatory terms like ungodly sums and horrible results.

What i really like is MB then running around talking about pedagogues as if the right has some monopoly on levity and context.

Police states and roving bands oh my.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Yawn. Grow up and stop addressing points you disagree with by entering your animus about Fox News. I have no idea how that outlet is covering this little charade, nor really care. I'll leave that to simpletons such as yourself.




Can I try not to post thoughts that might unsettle you?

Let me think.

Denied.

-MB

Ahh appealing to male machismo and fixating on a single portion of his argument.

Rush Limbaugh wrote, "Ditto, Rush," whose le lends to the premise that his audience just parrots him.

But rather than talk about what he is saying you call him a child. Nice.

Oh you are so brash. You give out the hard truths now don't you?

Your shtick is .

[Marcus Bryant]

Now disagreement is "inflammatory" and "brash."

What's that about a tired shtick? Yours is the oldest one in the book.

[Marcus Bryant]

So far we have the great Satans of Fox News and Rush Limbaugh mentioned, instead of addressing the point that American education is in miserable shape and that perhaps ins utional change is what is needed. Instead of daring to investigate this, the standard partisan political appeals are made.

[LnGrrrR]

So far we have the great Satans of Fox News and Rush Limbaugh mentioned, instead of addressing the point that American education is in miserable shape and that perhaps ins utional change is what is needed. Instead of daring to investigate this, the standard partisan political appeals are made.

But will reducing benefits/salary create better schooling opportunities? Or will it just recoup some money, without doing anything for education?

Maybe the teachers ARE being paid too much. I don't think it's wrong for the people to say that. I also don't think it's wrong that teachers don't want a cut in pay/benefits.

Are there any statistics about education in WI that people have brought up? Is the schooling there much worse than other states?

[boutons_deux]

AFL-CIO Polls Show Wisconsin Supports Protestors, Opposes Walker




The got the results they wanted.

Anybody got any polls showing the opposite?

Here's a highly credible polling org that guaranteed a McLiar victory:

NYT calls out Rasmussen for conservative bias in Wisconsin poll

The New York Times accused Rasmussen Reports of lacing a recent survey on the Wisconsin protests with conservative bias, elevating longstanding critiques about the polling firm's credibility.

The survey, released Monday, asked four questions about the Wisconsin clash over Republican Gov. Scott Walker's budget plan, which would strip the collective bargaining rights of public employees and force them to pay more for benefits. It found that 48 percent of "likely voters" agreed with Walker, while 38 percent supported his opponents.

Nate Silver of the Times' FiveThirtyEight blog is a trusted polling expert who came to fame after correctly predicting the outcomes of 49 of 50 states in the 2008 election. In a Monday evening posting, he took issue with the manner in which several of Rasmussen's questions were asked, decreeing that they were designed to engender a pro-Walker bias.

Two of the questions, Silver wrote, misrepresented the nature of the opposition in a "blatant" attempt to diminish sympathy for them before asking the respondent whose side they were on. The penultimate question was "a talking point posed as a question," he declared.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/02/2...e+Raw+Story%29

[Marcus Bryant]

But will reducing benefits/salary create better schooling opportunities? Or will it just recoup some money, without doing anything for education?

Maybe the teachers ARE being paid too much. I don't think it's wrong for the people to say that. I also don't think it's wrong that teachers don't want a cut in pay/benefits.

Are there any statistics about education in WI that people have brought up? Is the schooling there much worse than other states?

Seems to be a place to start:

http://www.familyimpactseminars.org/...?p=1&page=site
http://www.familyimpactseminars.org/s_wifis11exec.pdf

[boutons_deux]

busting the teacher unions is a great way to reform education, and of course education reform is exactly what the Repugs want (their Pell cuts will remove 1000s from college, and of course they gave govt education loans to private banks with govt guarantees)

Repugs don't give a about education.

[TeyshaBlue]

Here's a highly credible polling org that guaranteed a McLiar victory:

NYT calls out Rasmussen for conservative bias in Wisconsin poll

The New York Times accused Rasmussen Reports of lacing a recent survey on the Wisconsin protests with conservative bias, elevating longstanding critiques about the polling firm's credibility.

The survey, released Monday, asked four questions about the Wisconsin clash over Republican Gov. Scott Walker's budget plan, which would strip the collective bargaining rights of public employees and force them to pay more for benefits. It found that 48 percent of "likely voters" agreed with Walker, while 38 percent supported his opponents.

Nate Silver of the Times' FiveThirtyEight blog is a trusted polling expert who came to fame after correctly predicting the outcomes of 49 of 50 states in the 2008 election. In a Monday evening posting, he took issue with the manner in which several of Rasmussen's questions were asked, decreeing that they were designed to engender a pro-Walker bias.

Two of the questions, Silver wrote, misrepresented the nature of the opposition in a "blatant" attempt to diminish sympathy for them before asking the respondent whose side they were on. The penultimate question was "a talking point posed as a question," he declared.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/02/2...e+Raw+Story%29

lol...now question phrasing is important to you. Ok.

[boutons_deux]

yes, of course, loaded/leading/false-choice/bad-choice questions/choices are not legit in unbiased polling.

[TeyshaBlue]

yes, of course, loaded/leading/false-choice/bad-choice questions/choices are not legit in unbiased polling.

Of course.

"No matter what the percentages are, there are definitely Repugs who believe these fantasies. the defense rests.
Go twiddle around with +/- errors and question phrasing."

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/show...7&postcount=16

[FuzzyLumpkins]

So far we have the great Satans of Fox News and Rush Limbaugh mentioned, instead of addressing the point that American education is in miserable shape and that perhaps ins utional change is what is needed. Instead of daring to investigate this, the standard partisan political appeals are made.

Oh give me a ing break. Your blanket dismissal again does not even address the point that all too many people just reiterate that which they are told.

that has nothing to do with education as much as it has to do with human nature.

you try to play this role of outsider but all you do is interject the 'conservative' ideology with 'libertarian' ideals.

what makes you worse is you just make generalizations and refuse ot even address the point. I made no comment as to Limbaughs ideology, I just said that he wrote a book whose le is based on the phenomenon I am talking about.

You can jsut try and dismiss it out of hand but to me it is a huge ing problem. you see the exact same thing on the other side with boutons.

and spare me the I know you are but what am i routine. i am adverserial but i do it because i find that it makes people take a stand and brings them out of there apathy.

i am an asshole and i am fine with that.

you try and be an maverick outside of the political context but then you jsut become transparent when you start with the "i ask the tough questions, and people jsut do not want to hear about it.'

its the same old tired bull that you hear from preachers and political pundits the world round.

it rings hollow.

[DarrinS]

Oh give me a ing break. Your blanket dismissal again does not even address the point that all too many people just reiterate that which they are told.

that has nothing to do with education as much as it has to do with human nature.

you try to play this role of outsider but all you do is interject the 'conservative' ideology with 'libertarian' ideals.

what makes you worse is you just make generalizations and refuse ot even address the point. I made no comment as to Limbaughs ideology, I just said that he wrote a book whose le is based on the phenomenon I am talking about.

You can jsut try and dismiss it out of hand but to me it is a huge ing problem. you see the exact same thing on the other side with boutons.

and spare me the I know you are but what am i routine. i am adverserial but i do it because i find that it makes people take a stand and brings them out of there apathy.

i am an asshole and i am fine with that.

you try and be an maverick outside of the political context but then you jsut become transparent when you start with the "i ask the tough questions, and people jsut do not want to hear about it.'

its the same old tired bull that you hear from preachers and political pundits the world round.

it rings hollow.

What an epic meltdown.

[Marcus Bryant]

Yes, I form my own opinions and I express them. Thanks for noticing.

[Supergirl]

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plu...ker_accep.html

Why won't Governor Walker accept unions' offer and declare victory?
By Greg Sargent | February 22, 2011; 12:12 PM ET

It's worth stating as clearly as possible that Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker is refusing to take a route out of the standoff that, while not giving him everything he wants, would allow him to declare victory over the public employee unions and even to assert that he had ground them down into submission.

As you know, the Wisconsin public employee unions have agreed to accept the wage and benefit reductions that Walker has asked for, in exchange for dropping his proposal to roll back their bargaining rights. Walker has refused.

Why? It isn't clear that there's any public support for this position in Wisconsin. One key finding from today's poll by the Dem firm Greenberg Quinlan Rosner is this one showing overwhelming support for this compromise:

Nearly three fourths think the workers should keep their collective bargaining rights if they agree to concessions on health care and retirement. Even 47 percent of Republicans believe this. Yes, this is a Dem firm and the poll was bankrolled by unions, but if this is anything close to an accurate representation of public opinion, it's quite remarkable.

The real tell here, the one that clearly reveals the real game plan, is that Walker won't accept this compromise despite apparently overwhelming support for it in his own state. After all, so doing would allow him to declare victory. He could very plausibly argue that his hard line forced public employees to cough up the concessions he demanded. You'd think this alone would win him plaudits from more reasonable conservative observers.

There are only three imaginable reasons why Walker isn't doing this. The first is that he really believes that rolling back employee bargaining rights -- in addition to winning the fiscal concessions he himself asked for -- is the only way to put the state on sounder fiscal footing. But if this were the case, he would have agreed to GOP State Senator Dale Schultz's proposal to roll back those rights temporarily, until 2013. Walker didn't do this either.

The second reason for rejecting the union compromise is that his goal is nothing less than to completely break the unions, pure and simple, as part of a broader drive to destroy one of the last ins utions in American life battling the creep of inequality and defending the economic interests of the working- and middle-class. The third reason is that Walker's intended audience is no longer his own cons uents; it's national conservatives who share the above goals and see any compromise as needlessly delaying the long-coveted "Waterloo" moment for organized labor that they suddenly sense is within reach.

For all of Walker's pieties about how he really, honestly, truly isn't out to bust unions, his own conduct makes it entirely clear what this is really all about.

[RandomGuy]

THE Republican-sponsored Wisconsin bill that would reduce the legal powers of the state's government-employee unions has aroused mass demonstrations in Madison (see photo) and instigated a comic diaspora of Democratic state senators to the glamourous Best Western Clocktower Resort in Rockford, Illinois (it has a waterslide!).

Meanshile, Kevin Drum of Mother Jones finds upon close examination that the legislation contains within it a dash of cynical partisan politics! The bill would, among other things, require government workers to make contributions to their pension and health plans, except for cops and firefighters. Mr Drum inquires:

Now why would this be? Is it because collective bargaining is somehow less of a problem for public safety employees than for teachers? Because strikes by cops are less hazardous than strikes by teachers? Because public safety employees tend not to be hard bargainers anyway? Because public safety employees are poorly paid?
Or is it because teachers tend to vote pretty reliably for Democrats and public safety employees don't? Bingo.

Gasp!

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democ...-sector_unions

Anybody who says the governor or state Republican politicians are motivated by fiscal responsibilty is pissing on your boots.

Some people who support the idea certainly are, but the way the bill was written demonstrates a pretty clear partisan motive.

[Supergirl]

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democ...-sector_unions

Anybody who says the governor or state Republican politicians are motivated by fiscal responsibilty is pissing on your boots.

Some people who support the idea certainly are, but the way the bill was written demonstrates a pretty clear partisan motive.

And yet, many in the mainstream media continue to perpetuate the line that this is motivated by money. It's a blatant lie and it's pissing me off that even respected news organizations are toeing this BS line.

[Wild Cobra]

And yet, many in the mainstream media continue to perpetuate the line that this is motivated by money. It's a blatant lie and it's pissing me off that even respected news organizations are toeing this BS line.

LOL...

Since when has the mainstream media integrity?

[boutons_deux]

As usual, Maddow's show has a devastating program of why Walker and Repugs are outright lying that public-sector unions cause deficits and must be destroyed

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#41726841