D-Will to the Nets

[Mal]

I never thought of that. I should have. That guy is a Jazz front office wet dream.

Deron is getting out of there, Utah going nowhere this year, 16th pick could be too less for Jimmer. They should acquire a lottery pick, to get Jimmer`s white mormon where he belongs.

[Cry Havoc]

It doesn't seem gargantuan but it's pretty significant. Year in and year out, the NBA generally has 3-5 players that average 25 points or more. There are generally something like 20 or so 20 PPG scorers, guys like Antawn Jamison and Jamal Crawford are fully capable of averaging 20 PPG. For a while, I've seen 25 PPG as somewhat of a baseline threshold for elite scorers. And when they've done it multiple times, you just know those guys are the truly elite scorers in the league. 4 PPG is significant when you look at a 20 PPG scorer versus a 16 PPG scorer. Same thing goes when the difference is between 25 PPG and 21 PPG. And as already mentioned, the difference is even bigger when you look at career scoring between the two.

That's a well-reasoned argument, but it also bears noting that Deron could probably score 25+ PPG if he wasn't busy dishing out 9+ assists per. He shoots almost the exact same percentages as Anthony this year. If we're going to compare histories, D-Will is drastically better from 3 point range and slightly ahead in overall FG%, so he's more efficient with the ball in his hands, even discounting assists. Anthony is a great player, but he's got too many holes in his game to be on a championship contender (I think). Deron is by no means a great defender, but he's not a ghost on defense like Melo, and that's the most important difference between the two, IMO.

[JamStone]

I think it's a case of tunnel vision to label great PGs as "unable to win les". The last 20 years of the NBA has seen players like Michael Jordan, the Shaq/Kobe duo in LA, and Tim Duncan's Spurs march through the playoffs. I think it's fair to say that any PG from any era would have struggled mightily against those teams. And as soon as you go back to the pre-Jordan era, you have Isaiah Thomas leading the Pistons to two les, and then in the 80s, you have Magic Johnson and the Lakers.

I think it's entirely possible that we will see an elite point guard win a le in the NBA soon, although the Nets are nowhere near favorites as they stand, obviously.

Labeling it "tunnel vision" does not make it any less true. Other than Stockton and Kidd, elite points guards haven't even been able to get to the NBA Finals, much less win it all. And Stockton had another HOF player next to him and Kidd only went to the Finals twice because of how ty the ECF was. I'm not saying a great PG can't lead a team to a le. But history has shown us that a great big man is much more valuable for championship success, and premier scoring wings can be just as good as a great point guard to take on the perimeter and facilitating responsibilities as long as the rest of the team is in place. For as much responsibility as most point guards have, the evolution of the wing position with guys like Kobe, LeBron, Wade, heck Manu, the point guard position has been devalued if you can find a great scoring wing who also has playmaking abilities.

[Gordon Hayward]

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RT @Lockedonsports: Deron Williams told me it was not his choice. He's stunned. Declined interview until he figures out what it all means

It means Jerry Sloan came back and got dat ass. That's what it means.

[Findog]

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RT @Lockedonsports: Deron Williams told me it was not his choice. He's stunned. Declined interview until he figures out what it all means

I'll tell you what it means: Utah thought he was going to walk in 2012 and this was their last chance to get something for him if there's a lockout next year. NJ is the faves to resign him since he can't sign an extension until the new CBA is in place.

[JamStone]

That's a well-reasoned argument, but it also bears noting that Deron could probably score 25+ PPG if he wasn't busy dishing out 9+ assists per. He shoots almost the exact same percentages as Anthony this year. If we're going to compare histories, D-Will is drastically better from 3 point range and slightly ahead in overall FG%, so he's more efficient with the ball in his hands, even discounting assists. Anthony is a great player, but he's got too many holes in his game to be on a championship contender (I think). Deron is by no means a great defender, but he's not a ghost on defense like Melo, and that's the most important difference between the two, IMO.

Tayshaun Prince shoots nearly identical shooting percentages as Deron Williams and even shoots better from three point range, so I guess Prince could score 25+ PPG too if he took more shots. But he hasn't. Never has. Never has come close. Being "capable" is not the same thing as actually doing. Deron might be capable, but until he actually does it, I wouldn't just assume he'd be able to. Once he takes more shots and passes less, defenses would change their approach defending him. Part of his ability to score efficiently for a guard is his passing. If he scores more, his efficiency likely drops. And that doesn't even go into whether him scoring more helps his team win or not.

[Kyle Orton]

Tayshaun Prince shoots nearly identical shooting percentages as Deron Williams so I guess he could score 25+ PPG too if he took more shots.

[Cry Havoc]

The biggest shot of Magic Johnson's career was a game winning skyhook over two 7 footers in the most congested area of the court. The day D-Will, D-Rose or CP3 makes that kinda shot in the finals, I'll castrate myself, film it, and post the youtube link on ST. The biggest factor preventing PGs from leading their team to les is height, a factor that wasn't a problem at all for Magic Johnson. Using him as an example only proves the theory more.

Lol ignoring Isaiah Thomas.

Labeling it "tunnel vision" does not make it any less true. Other than Stockton and Kidd, elite points guards haven't even been able to get to the NBA Finals, much less win it all. And Stockton had another HOF player next to him and Kidd only went to the Finals twice because of how ty the ECF was. I'm not saying a great PG can't lead a team to a le. But history has shown us that a great big man is much more valuable for championship success, and premier scoring wings can be just as good as a great point guard to take on the perimeter and facilitating responsibilities as long as the rest of the team is in place. For as much responsibility as most point guards have, the evolution of the wing position with guys like Kobe, LeBron, Wade, heck Manu, the point guard position has been devalued if you can find a great scoring wing who also has playmaking abilities.

That's what strikes me as most on the outs about Melo, though. All the great wings you listed do a ton of other things to make their teams better. Even Kobe, as selfish as he is, has more than just an ability to score that makes him a great player. Melo is not nearly as well rounded as any of the other players, and he only helps his team out on one side of the ball. And for every "premier scoring wings" that have won les, I can name several that have never even sniffed a LOB trophy. It's easy to spotlight certain guys as examples of what you need to win in the league, but the bottom line is that for the past 20 years, it's been the Lakers, Bulls, Spurs, and Pistons, and no one else, so it's a difficult argument to make when you only have 4 teams and three of them have "GoaT" level talent.

[Gordon Hayward]

I'll tell you what it means: Utah thought he was going to walk in 2012 and this was their last chance to get something for him if there's a lockout next year. NJ is the faves to resign him since he can't sign an extension until the new CBA is in place.

I still think it means Jerry came back and got dat ass.

[Kyle Orton]

One big difference that's extremely important in the modern day NBA is getting to the FT line. Scoring wings have won a lot more les than PGs the last 20 years because of their ability to get to the line at the end of games.

[Kyle Orton]

That's what strikes me as most on the outs about Melo, though. All the great wings you listed do a ton of other things to make their teams better. Even Kobe, as selfish as he is, has more than just an ability to score that makes him a great player. Melo is not nearly as well rounded as any of the other players, and he only helps his team out on one side of the ball. And for every "premier scoring wings" that have won les, I can name several that have never even sniffed a LOB trophy. It's easy to spotlight certain guys as examples of what you need to win in the league, but the bottom line is that for the past 20 years, it's been the Lakers, Bulls, Spurs, and Pistons, and no one else, so it's a difficult argument to make when you only have 4 teams and three of them have "GoaT" level talent.

The last 20 years the Celtics, Heat and Rockets have won just as many or more les than Detroit so idk why you left them off.]

So what's you're argument with some premier scoring wings who haven't sniffed les. Here's what you're saying: the past 20 years, some premier scoring wings have won les, no premier passing PGs have won les.

[JamStone]

I think Melo is actually an underrated passer. He's always had ball dominant guards playing next to him, Miller, Iverson, Billups. They weren't necessarily selfish besides Iverson, but they did dominate the ball and were the main facilitators. Melo hasn't really ever been asked to run an offense before. He's been asked to score. I think if D'Antoni puts the ball in Melo's hands more, we will see him as much more of a playmaker than people give him credit for.

[Red Hawk #21]

I think Melo is actually an underrated passer. He's always had ball dominant guards playing next to him, Miller, Iverson, Billups. They weren't necessarily selfish besides Iverson, but they did dominate the ball and were the main facilitators. Melo hasn't really ever been asked to run an offense before. He's been asked to score. I think if D'Antoni puts the ball in Melo's hands more, we will see him as much more of a playmaker than people give him credit for.

Great point tbh.

[Cry Havoc]

Tayshaun Prince shoots nearly identical shooting percentages as Deron Williams and even shoots much better from three point range, so I guess Prince could score 25+ PPG too if he took more shots. But he hasn't. Never has. Never has come close. Being "capable" is not the same thing as actually doing. Deron might be capable, but until he actually does it, I wouldn't just assume he'd be able to. Once he takes more shots and passes less, defenses would change their approach defending him. Part of his ability to score efficiently for a guard is his passing. If he scores more, his efficiency likely drops. And that doesn't even go into whether him scoring more helps his team win or not.

So a point guard who averages 21 and 9 is not capable of scoring more? Of course he's going to continue passing if it gets his team the most high % shot, that's what makes a PG so valuable. And there is a huge difference between a 14 ppg player and a 21 and 9 player. Come on, Jamstone, you don't need to resort to snarky comments to bolster your argument. Denver has also perennially been one of the highest scoring teams in the league, while Utah has always been one of the lowest, which further reduces the difference between the two.

[Kyle Orton]

Denver has also perennially been one of the highest scoring teams in the league, while Utah has always been one of the lowest, which further reduces the difference between the two.

2011 Jazz: 99.4 PPG (14th highest scoring team)

2010 Jazz: 104. PPG (4th highest scoring team)

2009 Jazz: 103.6 PPG (7th highest scoring team)

2008 Jazz: 106.2 PPG (5th highest scoring team)

2007 Jazz: 101.5 PPG (7th highest scoring team)

Again, how often do you watch the Jazz?

[djohn2oo8]

One trusted source last week told me Deron was in "a league of his own" as far as creating problems for coaches, within the team.

http://twitter.com/sluhm

[Killakobe81]

Now that that ballhog Devin Harris is out of the way and the Nets now have a real point guard, the Machine can really get his 20-30 points anytime he wants to.

LOL ...Speaking of ex-Lakers BTW, how much is Jordan Farmar hating life now? Sure, he hadnt beat out Harris either but his mins. will be even more scarce now ...

If dude could of gotten it together and ran the offense the PG job was his in Lakerland ... but his ego and got in the way ...

[LnGrrrR]

Wtf?!?!

I thought this was a stupid troll thread... this is real?

[JamStone]

So a point guard who averages 21 and 9 is not capable of scoring more? Of course he's going to continue passing if it gets his team the most high % shot, that's what makes a PG so valuable. And there is a huge difference between a 14 ppg player and a 21 and 9 player. Come on, Jamstone, you don't need to resort to snarky comments to bolster your argument. Denver has also perennially been one of the highest scoring teams in the league, while Utah has always been one of the lowest, which further reduces the difference between the two.

You're the one who compared shooting percentages. If you're going to use shooting percentages as part of the basis for your argument that Deron could average 25 PPG, then I'm going to use Prince as an example to refute it. Deron is not really a 21 PPG scorer. This is the first season averaging over 20 PPG. He's more of a 18-19 point scorer. He's scored more this season because of the loss of Boozer. And what has that gotten him? Traded to the Nets. If Deron has solid players around him, he's best served to be more of a 18-19 PPG scorer and 10 APG PG, not a 25 PPG scorer. And I'm not sure where you've been, but over the past few seasons before this season, Utah has been one of the faster teams in the league, been top 10 in terms of pace and scoring.

[Kyle Orton]

2011 Jazz: 99.4 PPG (14th highest scoring team)

2010 Jazz: 104. PPG (4th highest scoring team)

2009 Jazz: 103.6 PPG (7th highest scoring team)

2008 Jazz: 106.2 PPG (5th highest scoring team)

2007 Jazz: 101.5 PPG (7th highest scoring team)

Again, how often do you watch the Jazz?

Btw it's funny that the one season D-Will showcases his "ability to score more" is the first season Utah is averaging less than 100 PPG. Odd coincidence tbh.

[LnGrrrR]

Larry Bird

Larry Bird could pass.

[Killakobe81]

Tayshaun Prince shoots nearly identical shooting percentages as Deron Williams and even shoots better from three point range, so I guess Prince could score 25+ PPG too if he took more shots. But he hasn't. Never has. Never has come close. Being "capable" is not the same thing as actually doing. Deron might be capable, but until he actually does it, I wouldn't just assume he'd be able to. Once he takes more shots and passes less, defenses would change their approach defending him. Part of his ability to score efficiently for a guard is his passing. If he scores more, his efficiency likely drops. And that doesn't even go into whether him scoring more helps his team win or not.

You make a lot of sense Jam, but I think if the game is more uptempo he (Dwill) can score more while increasing his %'s ... though his TO's may go up. Look what D'antoni's system has done for mediocre to good shooters. Dwll is not a great shooter like Nash but a good one. Not sure how uptempo avery will be though but he did give kidd that kind of freedom.

LOL Dont think you can compare Prince who was never a volume shooter/scorer in college (and even HS to some extent)to Dwilliams ...and yes Jam your post did smack of beind a smartass ...but I appreciate caustic humor.

[Gordon Hayward]

One trusted source last week told me Deron was in "a league of his own" as far as creating problems for coaches, within the team.

http://twitter.com/sluhm

I'm sure Deron is going to love being on a losing team with Avery riding him along the way.

[LnGrrrR]

What's funny is that I think the NY Knicks would've been better off if they had traded for DWill instead of Carmelo.

[lefty]

Wtf?!?!

I thought this was a stupid troll thread... this is real?