Reply With Quote
You want me to prove I can google?
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article...nk_again_egyptThe Muslim Brotherhood may be the largest organized opposition group in the country, but it has not been the leading force behind the protests that have rocked Egypt over the last two weeks -- as much as the government has attempted to paint them as a bogeyman for a Western audience.
The mere fact that the newly appointed vice president met with Brotherhood representatives, among other opposition and independent figures, is an explicit recognition of the group's standing and political legitimacy, and a monumental sea change from decades of Egyptian government pronouncements about the group and its activities. As recently as Feb. 3, in an interview with ABC reporter Christiane Amanpour, Mubarak once again blamed the Brotherhood for the violence in Cairo.
None of the analysis I have seen has indicated that the boogeymen you and Yoni are attempting to create is anything other than a paper tiger. They will have some power, but are far short of the kind of power that would turn the country into a theorcratic state.
Sorry.
Once again, reality is the ultimate enemy of the lies you guys seem to suck up as fact on a regular basis.
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article...ue_of_the_deaf
You want me to prove I can google?
Five myths about Egypts revolutionAs for the Muslim Brotherhood itself, it probably represents no more than 20 percent of the Egyptian population. And now that the mass public has been mobilized and energized by calls for freedom and good governance -- not Islam -- the movement is in danger of being pushed to the margins of political life. Egyptians are a religious people, but most evince little desire to be ruled by Quranic diktats.
I have seen little else by anything that seems credible.
The people saying "theocracy, booga, booga, booga" invariably know jack about Egypt's real political situation and players.
(deleted as being a bit more hostile than I would like, sorry I posted it)
Last edited by RandomGuy; 02-24-2011 at 02:03 PM. Reason: trying not to be a jackass.
And random I never mentioned the Muslim brotherhood, though I did mention a theocratic/democratic hybrid as a possible eventuality.
Well, Obama's intel chief said that the Muslim Brotherhood was "largely secular", so that's good enough for me.
Fair enough.
I would agree that it will be something along those lines. Probably end up as a parlimentary democracy, with some substantial religious influence.
I would think that for minorities either religious or ethnic, it will not be good. New democracies tend to have poor protections in that regard.
This will feed many Western criticisms.
Egypt has always kept a separation of church and state and religious/political parties were not allowed.
Abandon that and I guarantee we are going to get a result in Egypt that we don't like.
We have to accept the fact that they are grown-ups and can make their own decisions.
Either we can deal with that maturely and responsibly, and with a modi of respect, or we simply perpetuate the idea that we are an evil imperialist.
Over time, treating someone with some respect tends to blunt the idea that you are evil.
I can live the the short-term costs for the long term gains.
And if I had you would have accused me of googling them... Which is a great politician's trick... But does nothing on this forum where I know 97% of the looney toons here don't even read context before jumping on conservative thought. I'm here because I'm bored, and I'll be gone when you start to bore me more than going back to work.
I agree.
We may not like the leaders in these nations now having protests. I do however fear repeats of Iran and Iraq of the late 70's. Remove the devil you know, and get one worse.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20110224...g-43a8d4f.html
Putin warns West on North Africa democracy-building
1 hour 26 mins ago
Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin cautioned the West Thursday that attempts to meddle in the rebellions of the Arab world may sweep extremists to power. Skip related content
"You have to give people the chance to choose their own fates and their own futures," Putin said at a press conference with European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso.
"Give them the opportunity to determine their own fate through natural means and not with any kind of outside interference," he said.
Putin warned that previous attempts to "impose democracy" had fostered Iran's Islamic revolution and triggered election victories for radicals that the West is now fighting to contain.
Russia has long rejected Western criticism of its own democratic credentials and treatment of political opponents.
"Not long ago at all, our partners came out actively for honest democratic elections in the Palestinian territories," Putin said.
With heavy sarcasm, he added: "Wonderful! Well done, lads! And it turns out Hamas wins, the same people you are calling a terrorist organisation and have started to fight against."
Hamas -- which does not recognise Israel and won U.S. and European Union-backed Palestinian Territory elections in 2006 -- seized control of Gaza 18 months later after fighting allies of Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas.
Russia also supported the elections, which were part of a Middle East road map for peace in the region.
Hamas has so far benefited from the wave of anti-government revolt sweeping Arab countries, strengthening its position while Israel and the Palestinian Authority have lost their key Arab ally, former Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak.
Putin said Iranian revolutionary leader Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini had used the support of the West while living near Paris for a few months before he flew into Tehran in 1979 to lead the revolution that overthrew the Shah.
Russia's top leaders Putin and President Dmitry Medvedev have warned of the dangers of radical Islam gaining a grip in one of the most unstable and oil rich regions of the world.
"Regardless of the calming theories that radical groups coming to power in Northern Africa is unlikely, if it happens it cannot but spread to other areas of the world, including the North Caucasus," Putin said in Brussels.
The Kremlin is struggling to contain an Islamist insurgency in its predominantly Muslim North Caucasus region a decade after Moscow drove separatists from power in the second of two Chechen wars since the fall of the Soviet Union.
Unlike the relatively bloodless revolutions of Tunisia and Egypt, an uprising in Libya has sparked fierce fighting between pro-government forces and rebels. The unrest has driven world oil prices up to around $120 a barrel, stoking concern about the economic recovery.
Yep...
You all remember Hamas winning in democratic elections...
Think these extremist groups won't use the same political lies to get elected when the honest Egyptian will lose with the truth?
Honestly:And if I had you would have accused me of googling them... Which is a great politician's trick... But does nothing on this forum where I know 97% of the looney toons here don't even read context before jumping on conservative thought. I'm here because I'm bored, and I'll be gone when you start to bore me more than going back to work.
I can't name three off the top of my head either. Arabic names are hard to remember for me, as with most Westerners.
What I have read of those in charge does lead me to believe that the Brotherhood is not as theocratic as some believe, though.
It was something of an unfair question, but it was intended to make the ultimate point that you should do some reading before really forming an opinion.
I will stand by that, though.
Because Vladimir is an expert in democracy.
He's no expert on democracy but he's pretty damn smart and spot on in this case.Because Vladimir is an expert in democracy.
This is, for me, a cautionary tale about what happens when conservative ideas are put into place.
Russia has treated Chechnya with all the violence, torturing of prisoners in interrogations, and killed anybody they possibly can that resists them.
In short, they have done everything that conservatives in this country say we should do in our "war on terror".
In return, they have created a wasteland filled with people who despise them, and a never-ending security threat from suicidal widows.
Chechnya is, for me, the ultimate repudiation of the use of force and torture in the "war on terror". The Russians have been trying to kill their way out of their problem, and trying to do that has pretty much had the opposite effect over time.
I would assume (and yes assumption can be the mother of all ups) that when you grant an al jazeera educated public power, that they are going to carry VERY strong anti-west sentiment.
This may be tempered by their tourism industry... No idea.
Some people learn by their mistakes too.
FIFY
You are, of course, en led to an opinion as anyone is.
(shrugs)
We'll see.
I think the biggest danger we face is not supporting Egypt enough, and not treating them like adults who are en led to *their* opinion.
What tempered their army was the fact that many of the officers under 60 were trained by the US in a long-running exchange program.
That, I think, is one of *the* main factors that kept the military from shooting their own citizens. Their army was infected by our democratic ideals, at the risk of sounding too self-congratulatory.
I find that hard to believe when you have the history that the graduates of the School of the Americas do...
Obviously because Israel are the good guys, defenders of all that is right, and Iran, being the evil bad guys, just can't stand them.
Do you think that installing dictators friendly to us in foreign countries might possibly lead to ill-will with America, especially when said government is contrary to what the majority of people want?
When I ask why the US bends over for Israel on the regular, I'm told that it is because they are a democracy in the middle East.
When I ask why did we invade Iraq, I'm told that it is because it will be made into a beacon of democracy in the middle East.
Now I'm being told more democracy in the middle East can only be a bad thing.
I'm just checking in to see if this video has been picked up by any semi-legitimate news media.
Y'all keep me posted. Thanks.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions