There are a lot of union threads going on right now but I really didn't mean this to be considered in the scope of Wisconsin but rather in how the entire country views unions and their collective place in a free market society.
I think unions have a very important place in our society for the main reason that the individual's power will rarely compare to the power yielded by larger organizations (mainly the government and corporations). Unions aren't the only place people pool their influence to achieve a larger sphere of influence they just happen to do it through labor negotiations. What is the NRA if not an organization meant to better achieve the goals of gun owners? The same with Greenpeace, etc etc.
In my opinion, one of the absolutely necessary components of a free market society is the ability of citizens to pool their collective interests and work together to achieve goals and I see this as the fundamental role of unions. Therefor, unions are absolutely a necessary component to a free market society.
For whatever reason, I often get the sentiment in this country that we blame the unions before other organizations. As an example, when GM went down many felt the need to blame the unions for their compensation packages that were openly negotiated as opposed to blaming those who agreed to those compensation packages. Why?
As part of the work force ever individual should have a right to the best wages they can get. Telling someone they were too successful in their negotiations is fundamentally flawed in a free market society.
This also applies when it comes to the government. There are countless organizations that make money off the government and its spending from the military industrial complex to the companies like sisco that provide food and supplies. These corporations negotiate their rates and are not expected to give a price break simply because they are the taxpayer.
Then why are public workers expected to give the government a break for their services? If government workers join forces to collectively bargain what is so wrong and unAmerican about that? Its the responsibility of our elected officials and government leaders to make these decisions in a responsible manner and for the voters to hold them accountable if they don't. But it is not the responsibility of any group of workers to take a deal worse than what the free market allows for. The reality of the situation is that while compensation packages may differ regarding salary and benefit ratios, the end result is that compensation between the public and private sectors is absolutely in line. Public employees may get more benefits but they take less in wages to do so and the end result is compensation at the same rate.
The false premise among pro-union busting supporters is that large bureaucratic employers will never misuse their power or influence to underpay or otherwise take advantage of their workforce; therefore it's wrong to organize labor to fight for rights and benefits.
Give up, MIG, with your principles, values, norms. You get credit for having your red heart in the right place, but the black hearts don't GAFF.
The VRWC has so fouled and rigged the UCA that the UCA is beyond repair.
It took the Great Depression and FDR/Secora to regulate the then-unregulated and totally corrupt financial sector that caused the Great Depression.
FDR was doing great until he cut spending in 1937 and cratered the recovering economy again. That's why the VRWC still trashes FDR at every chance.
There won't be a repeat of the huge government stimulus of WWII spending, because the UCA is totally captured by the VRWC.
And there won't be a repeat of a shattered Europe and Japan to suck in UCA products and services. The Marshall Plan wasn't charity (that's just another lie Ameica tells itself). It was financing Europe as a market for UCA output.
Hitler was the Best Federal Stimulus that ever happened to UCA.
The VRWC is vastly more powerful and sophisticated than it has ever been. There is no way to put that evil genius genie back in the bottle.
The VRWC has won the war on everybody.
Busting the unions is nothing but the classic post-war mop-up by the victors. Shooting the not-yet-dead left on the battlefield.
Last edited by boutons_deux; 02-26-2011 at 01:59 PM.
corporations want to be the only corrupt organizations involved in the workforce tbqh
Unions did not require compulsory membership to form originally.
They formed due to necessity in the face of adversity.
They now exist primarily because of compulsory membership and wage garnishment.
One should not be REQUIRED to pay membership dues to a 3rd party to be employed. They should have the OPTION to organize.
Then the discussion should be aimed at that aspect of whatever unions follow through with that process and not on actual unions.
unions are sugar coated businesses as well. I agree they are needed for workers, but they will do anything they can do to increase dues and attendance.
"One should not be REQUIRED to pay membership dues"
Then how to fix the problem where the dues-paying union members win benefits for everybody, including those that pay nothing?
The union should negotiate two classes of employees. One class is the union members with all the compensation and benefits, and other class of non-union members who get no union compensation and benefits? There, fixed.
lol wutAs part of the work force every individual should have a right to the best wages they can get.
Classic prisoner's dilemma problem there. If the union negotiates good working conditions, benefits, hours, and wages and I don't pay, then I got something for nothing. If they can't and I did pay, then I have completely wasted the money spent on dues. Either way, I as an individual am better off not paying dues. And thus, we all think that way, the union dies, and we all get a much worse deal than if we all cooperated. Gotta love divide and conquer whether you're going to war, sorting an array, or screwing labor over.
i think the system we have is fine. its up to the state. if you dont want to work in a unionized state, work in another.
You don't believe a person should have a right to negotiate for the best possible outcome on their behalf? If you read it as me saying everyone is guaranteed the best possible wage then you misunderstood. I simply believe you should be able to negotiate the best rate possible and not have that held against you.
If you are better off unorganized... Then YOU ARE BETTER OFF!!!
Unions were created in the face of physical violence from pinkertons!!! They were forcefully sent back to work... And they overcame and PREVAILED!! If a union dies because people don't join it in today's climate... With NO violence and NO threat of termination for membership... Then IT ISN'T NEEDED!
You convinced me with the ALL CAPS.
The very fact that unions are being busted in order to lower the negotiating power of the people they represent proves they are needed.
The argument isn't that those public employees are using a tool that isn't needed, its that they're using that tool too well. That they're getting compensation they don't deserve.
LoL@14 dems running and hiding to avoid a vote.
The squeaky wheel doesn't get the grease this time. Amen.
In regards to public workers, so you are saying that they should be forced to pay union dues because the union has negotiated the same compensation that non-union private sector workers have managed to get without any organization or deductions from their paychecks.
A flaw in your logic is that there is a total spectrum of thought that defines "free market society". But I agree with you.
How so? The State of Wisconsin is a free contractor and signed the dotted line. Why can't Wisconsin pay what it agreed to?
This isn't a matter of workers not paying their fair share, but of the state welshing on a deal because they didn't fully fund their obligations. When the states got burned in the equity markets and their revenue fell in the wake of the recession, the previously existing problem was only exacerbated, and just now it is beginning to come to a head politically.
The Repugs have framed yet another false argument.
It's just like the false debate about global warming. There is no debate. There is global warming science and the VRWC LIES.
There is NO PROBLEM with private or public unions.
The problem is that the criminal financial sector has crashed the economy, reducing tax revenues needed to sustain govt, which the VRWC wants to destroy.
THERE IS NO PROBLEM WITH UNIONS.
The overwhelming problem is with the financial sector, and other corporate predators like sick care, sucking wealth out of, impoverishing the citizenry.
So now the Repugs have created a false whipping boy of the unions to hide the real culprits.
I think that is exactly what Manny is trying to say, but those who think unions are outdated use the "they don't deserve it" line.
"Why can't Wisconsin pay what it agreed to?"
It can. Walker cut tax revenues $120M with tax cuts to corps. WI is refinancing WI debt to save more $100Ms in interest. There is no money problem. There is only a false, fabricated lie about a union "problem".
A very old tradition. Legislator Abe Lincoln did it by climbing out a window because the doors were locked.
If Repugs did it, you'd be cheerleading and praising their courage.
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