Consumer reports "Volt doesn't really make sense"

[Wild Cobra]

Interesting theory.

In the end, you still have to finance R & D through the sales of a given product.

I don't see how discouraging consumption in that manner, through VAT taxes, would make up for it.

It's a bit like shifting money from one pocket to ther other then saying you have more total money, IMO.

Ideas like "The Fair tax" deserve their own thread. Lean a bit more about it, and maybe my related remarks will make more sense.

[Sportcamper]

The same person from Consumers Report who wrote the Volt article was doing research on toasters the week before…Now there is some technical data we all can believe in…

[Wild Cobra]

We don't. Your underlying assumption is flawed.

Yes we do.

[Sportcamper]

Consumers Report best autos for 2011 has several Hyundai’s & Kia’s on the list…

[RandomGuy]

Yes we do.

Quantify it then.

"we limit energy production so much" seems to imply that we limit domestic energy production by quite a bit.

I have pointed out to you that the US holds 2% of known global oil reserves, and most of those are offshore, requiring some pretty hefty capital outlays. That and the fact that oil companies have yet to even get close to using up all the permits they have been granted by the government seems to indicate that the limit is not that of the government's restrictions.

The recent oil and gas boom from fracing has also gone on with little restriction.

The government pretty regularly approves mountaintop removal for coal, one of *the* more nasty things to do in terms of environmental damage.

Tell me how we "limit energy production" and quantify it to some small degree.

Or

Withdraw the assertion.

[Wild Cobra]

@ $4/gal, about 5.5 years assuming you drive 15k/yr.

That's not a bad return.

Well, if I take 15,000 annual miles for 5 years, that's 75,000 miles. 75,000 miles is 3,000 gallons at 25 MPG and 750 gallons at 100 MPG. The difference is 2,250 gallons which would need to be at $8.89 per gallon to make it work.

I use 5 years because of my expected lifespan of the batteries. Have different numbers?

[RandomGuy]

Consumers Report best autos for 2011 has several Hyundai’s & Kia’s on the list…

Not all that surprising.

Korea, using Japanese expertise and methodology, closed the quality gap that took the Japanese decades to do with American goods.

Used to be "made in Japan" meant cheap junk in the early 1980's. No so anymore.

So it is with Korean manufacturing now.

[Wild Cobra]

Quantify it then.

"we limit energy production so much" seems to imply that we limit domestic energy production by quite a bit.

I have pointed out to you that the US holds 2% of known global oil reserves, and most of those are offshore, requiring some pretty hefty capital outlays. That and the fact that oil companies have yet to even get close to using up all the permits they have been granted by the government seems to indicate that the limit is not that of the government's restrictions.

The recent oil and gas boom from fracing has also gone on with little restriction.

The government pretty regularly approves mountaintop removal for coal, one of *the* more nasty things to do in terms of environmental damage.

Tell me how we "limit energy production" and quantify it to some small degree.

Or

Withdraw the assertion.

First off, to quantify it? Too many variables.

As for the 2%... Doesn't matter. When you are at the edge of supply vs. demand, a very small change in either make a relatively large change in price.

As for government limiting our production... Come on. Don't tell me you don't believe that.

[Wild Cobra]

Consumers Report best autos for 2011 has several Hyundai’s & Kia’s on the list…

I don't know about Kia's but I have seen some real nice Hyundai's.

[Sportcamper]

Ever drive or work on a KIA...

[Wild Cobra]

Ever drive or work on a KIA...

No, never wanted one. Too small for my taste.

[RandomGuy]

Well, if I take 15,000 annual miles for 5 years, that's 75,000 miles. 75,000 miles is 3,000 gallons at 25 MPG and 750 gallons at 100 MPG. The difference is 2,250 gallons which would need to be at $8.89 per gallon to make it work.

I use 5 years because of my expected lifespan of the batteries. Have different numbers?

That is about right. Teysha's calculation didn't encapsulate the the important distinction is the difference between the two.

The other differences are a tad more hard to define.

Electric motors, even with a limited battery life, are cheaper and simpler than complex combustion engines.

It is entirely possible that, even with battery replacement, the electric motor's reliability will keep it from the breakdowns that a gasoline engine would be prone to at higher mileages.

The added bonus for me is that five years down the road, you would be able to take advantage of newer battery tech that would extend the life of a charge markedly.

Another point to remember:

You can either have gas at $8.89 to make it work out, or simply use the car twice as much.

If one uses the car for 30,000 miles/year, that would mean your break even point would be $4.44, not quite as far off.

[Wild Cobra]

That is about right. Teysha's calculation didn't encapsulate the the important distinction is the difference between the two.

The other differences are a tad more hard to define.

Electric motors, even with a limited battery life, are cheaper and simpler than complex combustion engines.

It is entirely possible that, even with battery replacement, the electric motor's reliability will keep it from the breakdowns that a gasoline engine would be prone to at higher mileages.

The added bonus for me is that five years down the road, you would be able to take advantage of newer battery tech that would extend the life of a charge markedly.

Another point to remember:

You can either have gas at $8.89 to make it work out, or simply use the car twice as much.

If one uses the car for 30,000 miles/year, that would mean your break even point would be $4.44, not quite as far off.

Yes, and who knows. Maybe within 5 years, batteries will be more reliable and cheaper. Some of them have toxic waste issues during development, recycling, and/or disposal. Funny how as expensive they are, we buy the batteries from other countries. How much would they be if they were manufactures under OSHA and EPA requirements? What type of ecological damage are we encouraging other countries to take?

[RandomGuy]

First off, to quantify it? Too many variables.

As for the 2%... Doesn't matter. When you are at the edge of supply vs. demand, a very small change in either make a relatively large change in price.

As for government limiting our production... Come on. Don't tell me you don't believe that.

Your assertion, your burden of proof.

I have no doubt that environmental regulations limit the amount of energy we dig up/drill to some small degree.

You imply that degree is very large, and use that for the underlying assumption of your question.

I'm not asking for a down to the joule measurement, but a rough %.

How much higher would our fossil fuel production be in your mind if the big bad government would just get out of the way, as you advocate? 10%, 20%, etc?

What strains credibility is your seeming assertion that a country holding reserves of 2% of global supply could ever increase production enough to make a dent in overall global oil supplies.

As I said, either you can start to flesh out your assertion, or you can't prove it to some reasonable degree.

The burden is yours.

[RandomGuy]

Yes, and who knows. Maybe within 5 years, batteries will be more reliable and cheaper. Some of them have toxic waste issues during development, recycling, and/or disposal. Funny how as expensive they are, we buy the batteries from other countries. How much would they be if they were manufactures under OSHA and EPA requirements? What type of ecological damage are we encouraging other countries to take?

A lot. We do similar for lead-acid batteries we use in our cars now, and for oil spills in all the places that drill for oil for the global market.

[MannyIsGod]

I would have thought it was common sense that if your main goal is to save money then a 40k vehicle is not your best option. That might just be my amazing analytical skills at work though.

[boutons_deux]

"40k vehicle is not your best option"

TCO is the calculation, not purchase price

[TeyshaBlue]

Well, if I take 15,000 annual miles for 5 years, that's 75,000 miles. 75,000 miles is 3,000 gallons at 25 MPG and 750 gallons at 100 MPG. The difference is 2,250 gallons which would need to be at $8.89 per gallon to make it work.

I use 5 years because of my expected lifespan of the batteries. Have different numbers?

Whoops...my bad. I was using a Purchase price differential of $10,000 instead of $20,000.

[Sportcamper]

Purchasing a Volt has nothing to do about saving money…It is about saving the planet…Getting a leg up on electric vehicles which are here to stay…Not to mention cashing in on the 7500 Federal tax credit…

[coyotes_geek]

Purchasing a Volt has nothing to do about saving money…It is about saving the planet…Getting a leg up on electric vehicles which are here to stay…Not to mention cashing in on the 7500 Federal tax credit…

That's the biggest problem with the Volt. It costs taxpayers another $7,500 everytime GM sells one.

[TeyshaBlue]

Woof. Figure in that tax credit and my initial estimate was not too far off.

[Sportcamper]

Someone at work purchased the Nissan version…And there is nowhere to plug it in once he gets here…At least the Volt has more range…

[Drachen]

That is about right. Teysha's calculation didn't encapsulate the the important distinction is the difference between the two.

The other differences are a tad more hard to define.

Electric motors, even with a limited battery life, are cheaper and simpler than complex combustion engines.

It is entirely possible that, even with battery replacement, the electric motor's reliability will keep it from the breakdowns that a gasoline engine would be prone to at higher mileages.

The added bonus for me is that five years down the road, you would be able to take advantage of newer battery tech that would extend the life of a charge markedly.

Another point to remember:

You can either have gas at $8.89 to make it work out, or simply use the car twice as much.

If one uses the car for 30,000 miles/year, that would mean your break even point would be $4.44, not quite as far off.

What is being missed here is that in practice, most people are going to get better than 100 mpg. I know that if I owned one, It would be extremely rare that I use gas, if at all. So the gasoline costs would fall dramatically. However there would be an increase in electricity costs so one would need to find out the difference THERE, then use that difference to calculate the difference between the volt and an internal combustion engine.

Also, I read an environmental impact study on the life cycle impact of an electric car with a Lithium Ion battery that said the only way an internal combustion vehicle could compete in that area would be to get about 70 mpg.

I do, however agree with the premise of the article and I think the Leaf is a much better option anyway since it makes more fiscal and environmental sense. Leading to this truism. . .

I would have thought it was common sense that if your main goal is to save money then a 40k vehicle is not your best option. That might just be my amazing analytical skills at work though.

They teach you that in New Mexico? Their standards must be rising!

[RandomGuy]

No.

They went by regulations. Consumer needs to always be aware. The free market I'm talking about is that of actual tangible material and design. One that there are actual buyers and sellers.

You can find bad examples in any system. That doesn't make it the norm for all.

Unless of course the system you are talking about is related to a social safety net, then one bad example means the whole system is wrong.

Cognitive, meet dissonance.

[RandomGuy]

Stop making the corporation [sic] reliant on government incentives and subsidies.

Tariffs are in the cons ution for a reason, [like protecting domestic firms from superior or cheaper foriegn products with incentives to be inefficient]

Dissonance, meet cognitive