HOF yes or no?: International edition

[JamStone]

Kind of a spin-off thread of the Odom/Kukoc thread. The Naismith HOF has several international players as inductees. But the only crossover international player in the modern era is Drazen Petrovic (that I'm aware of), and his induction is mostly based on his international career. I'm surprised Arvydas Sabonis still hasn't gotten more consideration from the Hall (or maybe he has and I haven't heard his name mentioned as a possible candidate since he's been eligible). So let's take a look at some possible international players (not including any foreign born but played college in the states) who have also gone on to play in the NBA. Who do you think among them if any will eventually make it into the Naismith Hall of Fame?

Toni Kukoc - I don't think everyone realizes how great he was before he played in the NBA, he'll be eligible next HOF class
Manu Ginobili - a lot of people on these boards seem to believe he's a shoe-in for the HOF based on his international career
Arvydas Sabonis - he's been eligible for I believe 3 years already. He should probably already be in
Pau Gasol - if Pau eventually gets legitimate consideration, his NBA career will factor in much more than the others above, since he's had championship success in the NBA and since he really only played I believe 2 years in the Euroleague

I didn't include Dirk Nowitzki, because he's already pretty much guaranteed a place in the HOF based on his NBA career alone. Others who might be in play eventually could include Luis Scola (European and FIBA resume is very impressive), Peja Stojakovic (might sound funny and is unlikely but does have a fairly strong international resume), Sarunas Jasikevicius and Juan Carlos Navarro, who both have impressive international careers but failed to impress in the NBA. I haven't included guys like Dejan Bodiroga or Dimitris Diamantidis, who might have a chance based on their international careers but didn't actually play in the NBA.

I also think Vlade Divac might have a chance to get in the HOF, but as a contributor, not as a player. Vlade is often referred to as one of the main pioneers of the great influx of international players in the NBA in the early to mid 1990s, and is considered kind of like a forefather of modern Yugoslavian basketball. His actual basketball accomplishments and awards pale by comparison to the other guys mentioned, but along with his perceived hand in the internationalization of the NBA, I believe he as an ambassador for basketball and his humanitarian works will give him plenty of consideration at some point for him to be inducted.


Next post, I'll highlight the international careers of the above four bolded players, and Drazen Petrovic's international career achievements for comparative analysis. See what you think and who you would consider as eventual inductees to the Naismith Hall of Fame.

[JamStone]

Drazen Petrovic
4x Euroscar POY (1986, 1989, 1992, 1993)
2x Mr. Europa POY (1986, 1993)
All NBA third team
2 Olympic silver medals (1988, 1992)
Olympic bronze medal (1984)
FIBA World Championship gold medal (1990)
FIBA World Championship bronze medal (1986)
FIBA European Championship gold medal (1989)
FIBA European Championship bronze medal (1987)

Compare Petrovic and his international accolades to the other four:

Toni Kukoc
5x Euroscar POY (1990, 1991, 1994, 1996, 1998)
4x Mr. Europa POY (1990, 1991, 1992, 1996)
3x Euroleague Final Four MVP (1990, 1991, 1993)
FIBA World Championship MVP (1990)
European Champioinship MVP (1991)
3x NBA Champion
NBA Sixth Man of the Year
All NBA Rookie second team
2 Olympic silver medals (1988, 1992)
FIBA World Championship gold medal (1990)
FIBA World Championship bronze medal (1994)
2 FIBA European Championship gold medals (1989, 1991)
2 FIBA European Championship bronze medals (1987, 1995)

Manu Ginobili
Euroleague Final Four MVP (2001)
2x Lega A MVP (2001, 2002)
Italian Cup MVP (2002)
FIBA Americas Championship MVP (2001)
3x NBA Champion
NBA Sixth Man of the Year
2x NBA all star
All NBA third team
All NBA Rookie second team
Olympic gold medal (2004)
Olympic bronze medal (2008)
FIBA World Championship silver medal (2002)
FIBA Americas Championship gold medal (2001)
FIBA Americas Championship silver medal (2003)
South American Basketball Championship silver medal (1999)

*note: in fairness to Manu, since he’s from Argentina, he’s not eligible for Euroscar POY or Mr. Europa POY. If there was a South American equivalent, we can all be pretty damn sure he would have cleaned up on those awards.

Arvydas Sabonis
6x Euroscar POY (1984, 1985, 1988, 1995, 1997, 1999)
2x Mr. Europa POY (1985, 1997)
European Championship MVP (1985)
Euroleague Final Four MVP (1995)
2x Spanish League MVP (1994, 1995)
2x Spanish League Finals MVP (1993, 1994)
All NBA Rookie first team
Olympic gold medal (1988)
2 Olympic bronze medals (1992, 1996)
World Championship gold medal (1982)
World Championship silver medal (1986)
European Championship gold medal (1985)
European Championship silver medal (1995)
2 European Championship bronze medals (1983, 1989)

Pau Gasol
3x Euroscar POY (2008, 2009, 2010)
2x Mr. Europa POY (2004, 2009)
2x FIBA Europe POY (2008, 2009)
FIBA World Championship MVP (2006)
EuroBasket MVP (2009)
Spanish King’s Cup MVP (2001)
Spanish League Finals MVP (2001)
2x NBA Champion
4x NBA all star
NBA ROY
2x All NBA third team
All NBA Rookie first team
Olympic silver medal (2008)
FIBA World Champion gold medal (2006)
FIBA European Championchip gold medal (2009)
2x FIBA European Championship silver medals (2003, 2007)
FIBA European Championship bronze medal (2001)

*note: the FIBA Europe POY is a relatively new award that has been given out only since 2005

[Technique]

Honestly Ginobili has had a better NBA career than Dirk, it really shouldn't be a question.

He's getting in.

[Double-Up]

Honestly Ginobili has had a better NBA career than Dirk, it really shouldn't be a question.

He's getting in.

Come on now, don't be a ing homer...

[benefactor]

Sabonis should already be in and Kukoc has a good shot at being first ballot. Manu and Pau will get in but perhaps not in the first year of eligibility.

[ChuckD]

Post #7

Manu is a lock.

[ElNono]

Jam, you're missing this one from Manu:

FIBA World Championship silver medal (2002)

Also, Manu, Petrovic, Kukoc and Sabonis were selected among Euroleague's 35 Greatest All-Time Players in 2008.

[diego]

the only ones I'm not sure will get in are Pau and Kukoc, because I don't think either rightly or wrongly are considered the best players on their NT the way Manu, Sabonis and Petrovic were. Pau is closer than Kukoc IMO.

as for manu, you forgot to list two things none of the others have: beating the US in the olympics, and olympic MVP. to some the fact that there hasnt been any other olympic MVP makes the award illegitimate, to others it shows just how huge manu was in that tournament that it prompted the organizing committee and press to name him MVP. also, there are south american athlete / basketball player of the year awards that manu has won, but they are not as prestigious (to you northeners at least ) as their european counterparts. bottom line, popping NBA team USA's cherry in the WC and olympics is by itself enough to get manu in, no one else in history will be able to match that.

[ElNono]

What you wanna talk about? Ramon Sessions?

[Kyle Orton]

Here's my simple solution: Create a pro-basketball/NBA hall of fame but also keep the original basketball hall of fame with its current criteria. It's the best of both worlds. That way guys like Sabonis, Petro and Kukoc get the recognition they deserve, but guys who had HOF careers at the highest level get further recognition.

IMO tho, Pau Gasol doesn't deserve to be a HOFer regardless. His International career isn't particularly impressive (I'm pretty sure his WC gold medal came with a team that won the championship game w/o him), and his NBA career is grossly overrated. It would be a travesty if he were in the HOF as he never dominated compe ion at any level like a HOFer should. I can at least respect guys like Petro and Manu who were almost as dominant as Michael Jordan on the international level.

[ElNono]

BTW, I agree that Pau and Kukoc are the only two that might be more debatable. The rest are shoe-ins IMO.

[jjktkk]

Euro gots... is this your idea of raising the bar? I'm going to personally derail this thread if it goes past six posts.

Don't get your lea s in a bind Luva. Your boy, ex Laker Sasha, just doesn't warrant a hof spot.

[ElNono]

I warned you asshole... here comes the wiki...

[diego]

i think the HOF just comes down to being an iconic figure in basketball. stats dont mean as much as legend. the perception of fans and media ends up trumping everything, mostly rightly so and other times not so much or not at all.

[lefty]

Sabonis is in


Good call, Jamstone

[Bito Corleone]

Honestly Ginobili has had a better NBA career than Dirk.

That is a ridiculous statement. I don't care if Dirk hasn't won a championship, or even if he never does.

[cheguevara]

Euro gots... is this your idea of raising the bar? I'm going to personally derail this thread if it goes past six posts.

LOL Asia

LOL Chinese magic

[The Gemini Method]

Sabonis should've been in a long time ago. It would be hard to deny any of the other ones you've listed as bonafide Hall of Famers.

[baseline bum]

Glad to see Sabonis get in; he was a monster bigman with no weakness in his game until his knees were shot, and even then he was still a top 10 center. Size, passing, athleticism, footwork inside, speed to face up and take his man off the dribble, Sam Perkins level range, great defensive instincts... Sabonis is about as complete a player as you'll ever see.

[cheguevara]

Sabonis flip shot in the post was MONEY