Then you better be damn careful when you make blanket statements.
No, as I said, I didn't assume that, I'm trying to get a feel for who you think deserves to be rich.Please tell me you aren't that stupid to assume such things.
Did you or did you not make the statement that "Rich people deserve to be rich?"If you aren't that stupid, then you are purposely trying make others think I said things I didn't.
God, you are being real lame right now. off.
I'm just curious as to how many wealthy individuals you feel got there through their own volition without any illicit dealings at the expense of others.
Don't you think there's some moral hazard for banks betting on themselves?
Before that issue, banks had to make sure they were doing their due diligence on loans, so they wouldn't lose money. But with CDS, even if the loan failed, they'd still recoup money. That leads me to believe they were willing to take on riskier and riskier loans, since they were making money either way. Does this sound right?
IOW, perhaps the existence of CDS led to banks' lowered standards.
Cry Wolf...
What you are trying to get me to say applies to all individuals of all income ranges.
Some are ethical, some are no, and there is a whole range of gray in between.
You want me to be specific, then be so yourself. Specific question can get a specific answer. General questions and scenarios only deserve a general answer.
Sure, there's a moral hazard there. I agree with you. Everyone got careless, I'll buy that CDS were a mechanism that contributed to the carlessness on the bank's side.
Fair enough. I just think that one factor seems to be unique to this era. I'm more willing to believe that the creation of these CDS led to lowered loaning standards over the idea that banks and people who take loans both became stupider simultaneously. I might be wrong though.
No ing way its 50/50. Its about 95/5 with the financial sector and the banks holding the lionshare of the burden. They fought and rolled back regulation in order to take bad risks and increase their short term profits on the back of many Americans who did nothing wrong. The vast majority of us did not take out sub prime mortgages and had no hand in this yet we all paid a price in one way or another.
There is no ing way its 50/50. There's no ing way its even 80-20. The financial sector ed this nation so hard its not even funny. At least many other countries around the world have actually done something worthwhile regarding regulating this situation in the future. We've done effectively nothing.
Except its so much bigger than this and outside of people taking the mortgages what banks and the financial sector DID with those mortgages compounded the situation so much.
Yeah, if you sell a psycho a gun you hold some responsibility but not so much if he attaches a ing rocket launcher to it and uses it to blow up 20,000 people.
#@)$*@()$*@)($!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Except the CDS were sold in EVERYTHING and packaged with EVERYTHING. Oh some sub prime mortgages happened to be in my mutual fund? NO BIG DEAL BECAUSE THEY"RE RATED AAA!!!!!!
Oh AIG is selling insurance on those CDS because they'll never default since they're AAA rated? Oh thats the consumers fault!
Oh lets regulate them but never mind because the banking industry has lobbied against just that?!?!?!? Oh, stupid over reaching consumer!
No ing way man. This type of blame is lunacy and exactly what the financial sector wants. I'm all for personal responsibility but they just ed us and I'm not going to take the blame for that.
Now, I actually agree with MB that the American Public has been asleep at the wheel and has allowed this to happen but to me thats a completely different set of blame. The financial sector ed us pretty hard in this crisis and they got off pretty much with no repercussions.
It's the bank's fault.
It's the bank's fault.
It's the bank's fault.
Okay, it's partially our fault.
Thanks for agreeing with me.
One important aspect that I feel gets overlooked is the stupidity of the AAA rating. Those people need to be docked/fined/etc for negligence. Anyone who thinks risks magically disappear because you pool a bunch of risky funds together deserves a bullet to the head.
I agree with you that the American Public shares the blame, CG. But its no where near 50/50. The biggest problem the American public has in this isn't even their credit but the people they listen to regarding economics and general legislative leadership. The vast majority of us didn't have any part of the sub prime crisis and the vast majority of us pay our credit bills and make the system run just fine. However, the vast majority of us allow those smarter guys in the room to us.
CG we're at fault the way stupid people who get defrauded are at fault. We're at fault the way a person who walks through a bad neighborhood and gets mugged is at fault. We're basically at fault for being stupid.
The banks are basically criminal, however.
There is a huge difference in those two faults and you will never equivocate them as far as I'm cocerned.
You came in like, 100 hours or something after the thread was created. I'm flaggin you for delay of game.
The ratings agencies got off with no legislation regarding their actions. Its a total crock of .
I think Manny is saying that, as the people who are supposed to be experts in this type of thing, the banking industry experts should be held to more accountability than the people making the loans.
Although, that "reverse accountability" happens in more areas than banking. Looking at the military, when's the last time a high-ranking officer got dishonorably discharged? They just get a slap on the wrist and moved to a new assignment while the lower-ranking enlisted soldiers get screwed.
But that shouldn't be the case. The subject matter experts should hold more responsibility, and therefore, more blame. If I send my troop to do a job that I know she can't handle, and she screws it up, it should be on my head.
Easy prey is easy, MIG.
I DO believe that the people handing out the loans share a larger part of the burden to make good loans, but beyond that what the financial sector and banks did to fight legislation and regulation and what they did to make the crisis grow to the point it did and what they have done since is what makes them the primary parties to blame and its not even close.
Yeah, we may have given them the keys to the car but those ers are the ones who got drunk as and killed everyone on the highway.
lol. Manny delivers.
For my Media Criticism course this semester I'm writing a paper on how different aspects of media (film, print, news media, etc) have talked about the financial crisis and so I've been reading more about it as late. Its criminal. Sometimes I wish there were some masked vigilante to just off these sons of es one at a time.
I wish for a real life Rorschach.
He would do just as well.
I didn't have a Rorschach .gif.
Now I do.
They deserve their share of the blame as well.
Banks suck. I didn't want to bail them out, I want to break them up. Third time I've said that in this thread. Banks suck. No matter how many times I agree with you in saying that banks suck at the end of the day we still have a crisis that originated in the millions of instances where one member of the American public actively sought out a lender and asked to borrow money. In that specific situation there are two parties to blame. MB is correct in pointing out that the banks gave us exactly what we wanted. If you feel that the bank bears more responsibility for those two parties willfully coming together, fair enough.
Yes, the root was the mortgages. But before, mortgages never caused a financial crisis because they weren't securitized. The securitization and lack of regulation on that action of sub prime mortgages was the real killer here.
In the past someone giving out a bad loan was just that - one bad loan. Now its much more of that because of the way the financial sector structured things. And whats really criminal is the ratings system. Giving subprime mortgages AAA ratings when they're sold is amazing. Just flat out amazing.
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