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I don't disagree with any of this. I simply don't think it's unique to hip-hop.
That's an interesting perspective because that kind of stuff seemed to sell a LOT of records back in the day. If we're talking about cultural impact, I really don't think there are a lot of young hip hop fans dismissing those artists as sexist and therefore non-credible.
I wont disagree that subtle sexism is just as bad (misogyny is misogyny), but this is the problem I have with the critical celebration of hip hop artists that put out this kind of garbage. WE may dismiss it because it's ridiculous to US and has no impact on OUR worldview, but it's not so ridiculous to a lot of people and I think it affirms a lot of poisonous views on gender roles.
I don't disagree with any of this. I simply don't think it's unique to hip-hop.
Rap/hip-hop does the best job though
hip hop influences one race a of a lot more to act a certain way than the other in the U.S. hip hop line of thought has influenced a generation of blacks significantly, in a bad way, and held them back quite a bit. the worst thing that hip hop did to white people was rap-rock, which set rock back quite a bit. one of the problems is rap, but to focus on it to the point where you're ignoring the other issues is stupid and not productive.
Hip hop influenced a generation of blacks in a bad way huh?
The cough I had made me get the flu!
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that poverty and other factors influenced generations of blacks a of a lot more negatively than hip hop ever has.
Hip Hop hasnt negatively influenced blacks? Thats as ridiculous as your cough analogy.
And there are other, more important issues, which is exactly why I said that by ignoring them to emphasize the hip hop one is counterproductive.
Hip hop artist DO influence people to dress, talk and act like they do. That's a no-brainer.
I believe Bill Cosby said much the same things, and more, a few years back, and nobody wanted to hear it from him either.
I never said it didn't influence them. I took issue with your statement that it had influenced the black community in a bad way. Back up your statement if you can. I'm all ears.
I don't know about that. For one, Cornell West defended Cosby. Oprah had him on and gave him a platform from which to voice his views. To say that nobody wanted to hear it is just flat out incorrect. Those are 2 of the most prominent (if not the most prominent in Oprah) voices in the African American community. Cosby also does public speaking on a regular basis. If no one is interested in listening that wouldn't make sense.
I don't agree with everything Cosby said but in the long run what he said will have a far greater positive impact on the black community than anything Ashley Judd said.
Your cough analogy implies you don't think it influences them in a bad way. Since you're so interested do the research yourself. There's plenty of it out there. It seems you spend most of your day on the computer anyway so look it up.
You made a statement - either you can back it up or you can't. Nice weak ad hominen, btw. If there's plenty of data then provide it. You surely used it before you made you statement, right?
It's not either I can or can't back it up, it's that I'm not. I'm not going to give you evidence for it because I'm posting from my iPhone and usually do on Spurstalk. It's hard enough writing 2 sentences. Like I said, you seem to have all the time in the world, so just do the research yourself. There's a wealth of information out there on it. Knock yourself out.
A wealth of information that you can't provide. Thanks. Posting links is hard.
There's a wealth of information and you've got a wealth of time. There's no excuse for you not to research it. And I know you wont look it up because you'll find out that I'm right and you're wrong.
and anyway, even in your first reply to me you imply in the last sentence you wrote that hip hop has a negative impact, even if small. So I don't know what the you're even saying now.
You know what? I'm just going to stop now. I realize that I'll never get the last word against some dude who has 50,000 posts.
Good thing you took the time to type all of that on your iphone instead of just finding a simple link.
To jump back on the subtle/not-subtle argument, I think that using the misogynstic terms openly is arguably worse. It shifts the window, so that now instead of subly implying something, you're just outright saying it. The reason why people imply something is usually because it's not acceptable socially to say it outright. If an artist feels comfortable using terms that aren't couched in analogy/simile/metaphor, then I think that shows worse on a society. YMMV.
"Brown Sugar" was about raping slaves, so it was erased from the cultural landscape by the overwhelming consensus of decent white folk.
Raping slaves? Rapping slaves. What the are we talking about again?
Yes, I mnetioned that song above as one of the more 'unsubtle' songs.
One question I think this brings up is the separation of an artist from his songs. Is Mick Jagger tacitly endorsing raping black women? Or is he just "telling a tale"? A little of both?
Does it matter if the song lyrics aren't in the first person? Eminem played around with this effect a lot, for instance.
No. It doesn't. Manny's cough analogy is simply pointing out that attacking hip-hop culture for its negative affect on the black community (and, without going on too wild a tangent, let's throw a snarky "lol" at the idea that hip-hop only affects/influences the black community) is a matter of treating the symptoms rather than the disease. Simply acknowledging that fact doesn't suggest that the symptom isn't still unpleasant.
It's a fair question, but even Mick Jagger tones down the lyrics when he does the song live. It's not like Ice-T ever killed a cop, either.
One question I think this brings up is the separation of an artist from his songs. Is Mick Jagger tacitly endorsing raping black women? Or is he just "telling a tale"? A little of both?
Does it matter if the song lyrics aren't in the first person? Eminem played around with this effect a lot, for instance.
Still not sure the value in arguing over who does something worse and/or more overtly when it's pretty obvious that misogyny is prevalent in multiple genres and in many aspects of popular culture. It seems problematic to me in the same way that Judd's comments bothered me from the outset -- it becomes someone else's problem. It suggests, in intentionally general terms, that as long as those people over there are doing something obviously horrible, I don't have to investigate how my group and/or my actions contribute the same problem. Or, perhaps more accurately, suggests that being an asshole is justified/justifiable just so long as there's always someone being a bigger asshole.
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