Is Ashley Judd right about hip-hop and its 'rape culture?'

[LnGrrrR]

Still not sure the value in arguing over who does something worse and/or more overtly when it's pretty obvious that misogyny is prevalent in multiple genres and in many aspects of popular culture. It seems problematic to me in the same way that Judd's comments bothered me from the outset -- it becomes someone else's problem. It suggests, in intentionally general terms, that as long as those people over there are doing something obviously horrible, I don't have to investigate how my group and/or my actions contribute the same problem. Or, perhaps more accurately, suggests that being an asshole is justified/justifiable just so long as there's always someone being a bigger asshole.

Judd just picked the genre that doesn't hide it as well as others. Can we agree that, recently, rap has become more overt in its misogyny than other mainstread genres? I think that's a relatively safe assumption.

If that's the case, then Judd is just picking on it because it's popular. (With all of the aforementioned problems that entails re: us v them.)

Let's face it though; if Judd just calls out misogyny in general, no one probably listens or cares. By specifying the source of said misogyny, it's more likely to generate discussion/controversy, etc etc. (For instance, if I say "Politicians are liars!", not many will disagree. But if I say, "X politician is a liar", then it will most likely provoke argument.)

[MannyIsGod]

Judd was just attacking something she knows little about. I'm pretty sure Judd's hip hop collection is non existent. There was no rational for her attack.

Don't even try to defend her. At BEST her bull was just flat out re ed and at worst it was racist. I'm choosing to believe she just attacked it out of ignorance (I would LOVE to see whats on Judd's Ipod so I could find some on there) but yeah.

That Rap doesn't hide it as well as others is just bull . How many times do we have to provide overt examples of misogyny in music outside of rap to prove that point? Its ing overt!

LNG, where you see "worse hiding" I see people who just willfully ignore it in other music and seek it out in rap.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

[CuckingFunt]

Judd just picked the genre that doesn't hide it as well as others. Can we agree that, recently, rap has become more overt in its misogyny than other mainstread genres? I think that's a relatively safe assumption.

If that's the case, then Judd is just picking on it because it's popular. (With all of the aforementioned problems that entails re: us v them.)

I get that. I still think it's problematic.

Further, I don't know that "overt" has been defined well enough within this discussion to agree that recent rap is more overtly misogynistic than recent anything else.

Let's face it though; if Judd just calls out misogyny in general, no one probably listens or cares. By specifying the source of said misogyny, it's more likely to generate discussion/controversy, etc etc. (For instance, if I say "Politicians are liars!", not many will disagree. But if I say, "X politician is a liar", then it will most likely provoke argument.)

I don't know how effective it is to provoke argument for the sake of provoking argument. Especially when the issue is raised in such a way that the majority of the resulting discussion focuses on where best to assign blame. If this thread exists as an example of the type of discussion that Judd's comments might provoke, for instance, I would say that it is an incredibly counterproductive approach. How much of this thread has been dedicated to implicating hip-hop culture as overtly misogynistic? How much has been dedicated to defending rock music as less offensively misogynistic? Comparatively, how much of this discussion has been dedicated to identifying the source of misogyny within contemporary popular culture and looking for a solution?

[mingus]

No. It doesn't. Manny's cough analogy is simply pointing out that attacking hip-hop culture for its negative affect on the black community (and, without going on too wild a tangent, let's throw a snarky "lol" at the idea that hip-hop only affects/influences the black community) is a matter of treating the symptoms rather than the disease. Simply acknowledging that fact doesn't suggest that the symptom isn't still unpleasant.

It's a product of the black community while being contributive to it. It throws fuel to the fire so to speak. A cough doesnt contribute to the flu. The analogy is a complete failure.

[LnGrrrR]

Judd was just attacking something she knows little about. I'm pretty sure Judd's hip hop collection is non existent. There was no rational for her attack.

Don't even try to defend her. At BEST her bull was just flat out re ed and at worst it was racist. I'm choosing to believe she just attacked it out of ignorance (I would LOVE to see whats on Judd's Ipod so I could find some on there) but yeah.

That's pretty much what I was saying. I was just more subtle about it.

That Rap doesn't hide it as well as others is just bull . How many times do we have to provide overt examples of misogyny in music outside of rap to prove that point? Its ing overt!

Again, you're using songs from the 60's and 90's to make your point.We're talking about current mainstream radio artists, something that 18-25 year olds listen to. (The Nickelback one was relevant, for instance.)

I can probably pick out 3 or 4 four current songs that have pretty blatant misogyny. Heck, even the Katy Perry song out has Kanye singing about abducting, probing and exposing a woman (though since he's playing at being an alien in the song, one could say he's not advocating that.)

Frankly, I think I could provide more popular, current rap songs today that include misogyny than other genres. (Not saying those other genres are immune to it, but that there is more prevalence in the rap genre.)

Without any sort of stat-based analysis, I don't think either of us will gain much ground on the subject.

LNG, where you see "worse hiding" I see people who just willfully ignore it in other music and seek it out in rap.

Probably not willful ignorance, but ignorance the same.

[CuckingFunt]

It's a product of the black community while being contributive to it. It throws fuel to the fire so to speak. A cough doesnt contribute to the flu. The analogy is a complete failure.

The cough analogy made perfect sense to me for the reasons I mentioned, but it's not my analogy so I'm not going to put any more energy into explaining/defending it.

However, I take issue with the suggestion that hip-hop culture is a product solely of the black community. Or that it influences only the black community. As soon as it moved off the streets of New York and into the major recording studios, it has influenced, and been influenced by, the white community just as much as anyone else. You're nuts if you think the hyper-masculinity and misogyny present within early gangsta rap would have been anywhere near as popular or as lucrative as it was if not for its appeal to the white suburban kids who bought it in droves. It's frankly negligent to discuss the misogyny present within hip-hop lyrics (or any other characteristics of the genre) without considering the possible effect of its mixed audience on the popularity of certain trends and themes.

[LnGrrrR]

I get that. I still think it's problematic.

Further, I don't know that "overt" has been defined well enough within this discussion to agree that recent rap is more overtly misogynistic than recent anything else.

Fair enough. I'd say that recent rap more often uses terms such as " , ho" etc etc, and also more likely to treat a women as an item and not a person, one who will sleep with anyone if the money/power/ /etc is enough.

Of course, there are lots of grey areas. For instance, is Usher's "Make Love in this Club" a misogynistic song? What about the remix of Enrique Inglesias' "Tonight I'm Loving You" (which gets changed to "Tonight I'm F'ing You")? Does that change the outlook on the original song?

I don't know how effective it is to provoke argument for the sake of provoking argument. Especially when the issue is raised in such a way that the majority of the resulting discussion focuses on where best to assign blame. If this thread exists as an example of the type of discussion that Judd's comments might provoke, for instance, I would say that it is an incredibly counterproductive approach. How much of this thread has been dedicated to implicating hip-hop culture as overtly misogynistic? How much has been dedicated to defending rock music as less offensively misogynistic? Comparatively, how much of this discussion has been dedicated to identifying the source of misogyny within contemporary popular culture and looking for a solution?

A discussion has to start somewhere. *shrug* Do you think anyone would've cared if Judd decried misogyny within music culture as a whole?

As far as identifying a solution, what solution are you looking for? A solution to preventing misogyny in society? In music? In certain brands of music?

[LnGrrrR]

However, I take issue with the suggestion that hip-hop culture is a product solely of the black community. Or that it influences only the black community. As soon as it moved off the streets of New York and into the major recording studios, it has influenced, and been influenced by, the white community just as much as anyone else. You're nuts if you think the hyper-masculinity and misogyny present within early gangsta rap would have been anywhere near as popular or as lucrative as it was if not for its appeal to the white suburban kids who bought it in droves. It's frankly negligent to discuss the misogyny present within hip-hop lyrics (or any other characteristics of the genre) without considering the possible effect of its mixed audience on the popularity of certain trends and themes.

So let's discuss it. How much of that problem is chicken (rap artists being misogynystic and kids liking it) and how much is egg (rap artists being misogynystic BECAUSE kids like it)?

And why did white kids identify with gangsta rap so much in the 90's? Simple fantasy fulfillment? A shared sense of rebellion? They wanted to piss off their parents?

[CuckingFunt]

A discussion has to start somewhere. *shrug* Do you think anyone would've cared if Judd decried misogyny within music culture as a whole?

If Judd had said it by herself? Probably not. If Judd was one of many people actively commenting on multiple instances of misogyny in popular culture? Yes, eventually.

As far as identifying a solution, what solution are you looking for? A solution to preventing misogyny in society? In music? In certain brands of music?

Well, I obviously don't think it does a of a lot of good to rid our music of misogynistic at udes if they were still so prevalent everywhere else. So, yes, I would hope to eventually find a solution for the overall objectification of women. And, as suggested earlier, I don't think that pointing a finger at what other people are doing is a particularly effective method for enacting that change.

Realistically, people have been ranting and railing against the anti-women sentiments within rap and hip-hop for as long as I can remember, yet it hasn't improved. How/why would we be able to tone down the misogyny in hip-hop culture when there are examples in literally EVERY OTHER FORM OF POPULAR CULTURE that tell us it's okay? , even chick flick/romantic comedies, many of which are written by women and aimed at female audiences, reinforce a number of misogynistic concepts (I'm pretty sure Judd herself has been in at least one film that presented the female lead as finding value in her life only after convincing a man to love her), so how is it at all realistic to assume that the hip-hop community is going to stand out as a shining beacon of feminism when little else is being asked to do the same?

[CuckingFunt]

So let's discuss it. How much of that problem is chicken (rap artists being misogynystic and kids liking it) and how much is egg (rap artists being misogynystic BECAUSE kids like it)?

And why did white kids identify with gangsta rap so much in the 90's? Simple fantasy fulfillment? A shared sense of rebellion? They wanted to piss off their parents?

Wrong questions.

I don't doubt for a second that hip-hop artists (like artists in any other genre) are misogynistic of their own volition. Or that the people buying it do so because they like it. The more appropriate question is how much have record sales of misogynistic recording artists encouraged producers/record companies to seek out more of that product?

Additionally, fantasy fulfillment, shared sense of rebellion, and pissing off one's parents are no doubt all contributing factors to the popularity of hip-hop within white suburbia. It can't be seen as purely coincidental, however, when authenticity and street cred are determined by characteristics that happen to fall in line (almost perfectly) with the stereotypes of black masculinity (and black female sexuality, for that matter) that have existed within the white community for several hundred years. To that end, one has to ask to what extent the popularity of misogyny and hyper-masculinity within hip-hop has been shaped by the fact that those aspects most closely adhere to the white assumptions about who/what black people are.

To be clear, I am in no way suggesting that hip-hop is what it is today only because of white audiences. Rather, I am suggesting that since hip-hop is a business, and since it is a product consumed by a very diverse audience, it is impossible to discuss as being an accurate reflection of the black community alone.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I don't want to sound like a or anything, but I'd kinda like to make love to her. Always thought she was gorgeous. She can say whatever she wants.

[DMC]

The hoes they speak of aren't being raped. They are just ghetto rats. They existed 100 years go in some form or fashion, even 3000 years ago. It's how they live, and these artists are just talking about their own experiences (or they are saying what sells to those in that culture).

Of course, there are those who buy it just so they can feel they are part of something raw, to be thought of as someone who had to climb out of a tough spot when in reality they have their names on the back of their mom's suburban with soccer balls above them.

[CuckingFunt]

I don't want to sound like a or anything, but I'd kinda like to make love to her.

This statement confuses me.

[MannyIsGod]

CBF confuses me.

[monosylab1k]

I don't think making fun of misogyny qualifies as misogyny.

Do you think Ben Folds is a misogynist?

He chose that song for a reason. He used it to garner attention. He used it to sell records. So if "promoting" misogyny = you're a misogynist, then yes Ben Folds is.

Maybe Ben Folds should have covered "###### er" instead if he really wanted to make a statement. Oh wait, that's another song by a white guy where the lyrics are "open to interpretation".

[LnGrrrR]

If Judd had said it by herself? Probably not. If Judd was one of many people actively commenting on multiple instances of misogyny in popular culture? Yes, eventually.

Exactly my point. Ashley Judd, by herself, wasn't going to change anything. But by pointing out a specific group (rightly or wrongly, ignorant or not), she was able to start a discussion in the blogosphere.

Well, I obviously don't think it does a of a lot of good to rid our music of misogynistic at udes if they were still so prevalent everywhere else. So, yes, I would hope to eventually find a solution for the overall objectification of women.

Good luck finding a solution to that. Might as well try to solve world hunger while you're at it.

Also, I find it curious you think it pointless to try to curb misogynistic at udes in music by itself. I'm not saying that rap alone should have to curb their misogyny, or that black leaders should denounce rap. But I don't think it's bad to hold singers responsible for what they sing. Maybe once the public gets over this rap vs other music issue, they'll start to look at all singers who use misogyny.

And, as suggested earlier, I don't think that pointing a finger at what other people are doing is a particularly effective method for enacting that change.

I disagree. Poiting a finger is merely the first step; the next step could theoretically be boycotting singers who used misogyny. (Something that was unsuccesfully deployed against R Kelly, IIRC.)

Realistically, people have been ranting and railing against the anti-women sentiments within rap and hip-hop for as long as I can remember, yet it hasn't improved.

So does that mean people shouldn't point it out? *shrug* Is music off-limits as far as critiquing when it comes to misogyny?

How/why would we be able to tone down the misogyny in hip-hop culture when there are examples in literally EVERY OTHER FORM OF POPULAR CULTURE that tell us it's okay?

I don't know; that's a good question to ask. I assume that it would start with people denouncing other forms of misogyny. (Though I doubt porn would be hit, since that's like asking muscle magazines not to feature males.)

, even chick flick/romantic comedies, many of which are written by women and aimed at female audiences, reinforce a number of misogynistic concepts (I'm pretty sure Judd herself has been in at least one film that presented the female lead as finding value in her life only after convincing a man to love her), so how is it at all realistic to assume that the hip-hop community is going to stand out as a shining beacon of feminism when little else is being asked to do the same?

I don't think anyone's saying that hiphop/rap should be held up as some "shining beacon of feminism". But the reverse is also not true; just because other forms of culture show misogyny does not mean that criticism of rap misogyny is off-base/wrong/etc etc.

Would you have taken offense if Judd said that romantic comedies portrayed/perpetuated misogynystic themes?

[LnGrrrR]

I don't doubt for a second that hip-hop artists (like artists in any other genre) are misogynistic of their own volition. Or that the people buying it do so because they like it. The more appropriate question is how much have record sales of misogynistic recording artists encouraged producers/record companies to seek out more of that product?

That's kinda what I was getting at, except you place the misogyny-seeking at the record company level rather than the rapper, which is more appropriate.

Additionally, fantasy fulfillment, shared sense of rebellion, and pissing off one's parents are no doubt all contributing factors to the popularity of hip-hop within white suburbia. It can't be seen as purely coincidental, however, when authenticity and street cred are determined by characteristics that happen to fall in line (almost perfectly) with the stereotypes of black masculinity (and black female sexuality, for that matter) that have existed within the white community for several hundred years. To that end, one has to ask to what extent the popularity of misogyny and hyper-masculinity within hip-hop has been shaped by the fact that those aspects most closely adhere to the white assumptions about who/what black people are.

Given what you've said here, why would some black artists choose to reinforce these negative stereotypes? I can understand making a "deal with the devil" to make money and get out of a bad situation, but once they've made a deal, why continue to reference the same subject matter? What about black producers who hire artists who reinforce the stereotypes?

To be clear, I am in no way suggesting that hip-hop is what it is today only because of white audiences. Rather, I am suggesting that since hip-hop is a business, and since it is a product consumed by a very diverse audience, it is impossible to discuss as being an accurate reflection of the black community alone.

I agree. The origins may be rooted in the black community, but it is definitely a multi-cultural genre, and has been so since probably the mid to late 80's. (Heck, the very coupling of Aerosmith and Run DMC is evidence of cultural intermingling.)

[LnGrrrR]

He chose that song for a reason. He used it to garner attention. He used it to sell records. So if "promoting" misogyny = you're a misogynist, then yes Ben Folds is.

I'm not sure about the Ben Folds cover, but singing a song that has misogynstic elements doesn't necessarily make the artist/song misogynystic. (For example, look at Immortal Technique's "Dance with the Devil".)

[Viva Las Espuelas]

[Cant_Be_Faded]

This statement confuses me.

*sigh* where's Midge when you need him?


It's a play on a classic line from the movie Orgazmo.
Matt Stone keeps saying "I don't want to sound like a or nothin, but..."
and says something nonsensical
like that
eventually he tells trey parker "I don't want to sound like a or nothin', but, I'd kinda like to make love to you right now"

But my point remains the same, I'd like to make love to Ashley Judd. She's a hot. I don't care what she says about hating black people, she's still grade A.

[Trill Clinton]

She has a semi point. Hip-Hop is the culture, ie DJ'ing, MC's, break dancing, graffiti.

Rap music is spawned from hip hop and some rap music does have some rape undertone in the lyrics.

So she's wrong to say hip-hop is rape culture....but really, I could give a .

[CuckingFunt]

Exactly my point. Ashley Judd, by herself, wasn't going to change anything. But by pointing out a specific group (rightly or wrongly, ignorant or not), she was able to start a discussion in the blogosphere.

My issue isn't whether or not her comments started discussion; it's whether or not that discussion is productive.

Also, I find it curious you think it pointless to try to curb misogynistic at udes in music by itself. I'm not saying that rap alone should have to curb their misogyny, or that black leaders should denounce rap. But I don't think it's bad to hold singers responsible for what they sing. Maybe once the public gets over this rap vs other music issue, they'll start to look at all singers who use misogyny.

Never said it was pointless to try. Just suggested it would require addressing several different issues in order to have any chance of sticking.

I disagree. Poiting a finger is merely the first step; the next step could theoretically be boycotting singers who used misogyny. (Something that was unsuccesfully deployed against R Kelly, IIRC.)

"Unsuccessfully" being an important qualifier, there.

So does that mean people shouldn't point it out? *shrug* Is music off-limits as far as critiquing when it comes to misogyny?

I don't know; that's a good question to ask. I assume that it would start with people denouncing other forms of misogyny. (Though I doubt porn would be hit, since that's like asking muscle magazines not to feature males.)

I don't think anyone's saying that hiphop/rap should be held up as some "shining beacon of feminism". But the reverse is also not true; just because other forms of culture show misogyny does not mean that criticism of rap misogyny is off-base/wrong/etc etc.

Would you have taken offense if Judd said that romantic comedies portrayed/perpetuated misogynystic themes?

I think the tenor of the discussion in this thread has obscured my original comment and the point of my argument. I don't think that it is wrong for Judd or anyone else to call attention to the fact that hip-hop culture is incredibly misogynistic. Have never suggested that doing so is, as a concept, inaccurate or inappropriate. My point has always been that it is problematic for Ashley Judd, someone wholly removed from the hip-hop community, to single out that community as a source of negative at udes/ideals. Regardless anything else discussed within this topic -- whether or not the hip-hop community is misogynistic, whether or not other genres of music are more or less misogynistic, whether or not the overtness of misogyny has an impact on its negative effect, etc. -- the fact that Judd generalized about a community to which she does not belong and ignored the presence of misogyny within her own community automatically makes her comments an issue of "us" versus "them." Such an approach is always, ALWAYS, more divisive than it is productive.

That's kinda what I was getting at, except you place the misogyny-seeking at the record company level rather than the rapper, which is more appropriate.

Given what you've said here, why would some black artists choose to reinforce these negative stereotypes? I can understand making a "deal with the devil" to make money and get out of a bad situation, but once they've made a deal, why continue to reference the same subject matter? What about black producers who hire artists who reinforce the stereotypes?

I agree. The origins may be rooted in the black community, but it is definitely a multi-cultural genre, and has been so since probably the mid to late 80's. (Heck, the very coupling of Aerosmith and Run DMC is evidence of cultural intermingling.)

The only reason I even went down this road was to refute specific comments that rap/hip-hop reflected and influenced the black community, and it seems we both agree that the community with which it interacts is far more diverse than that. As for the rest of it, I was perhaps not clear enough in my original comments on the subject, but I don't think the white community has had a direct impact on what people say (don't think, for example, that there are necessarily meetings in which rappers are explicitly told to stick to subjects that wouldn't otherwise interest them), but it has certainly had an impact on determining what is heard.

If, when it was new/newish, white audiences, for whatever reasons, like to listen to black rappers addressing subjects in a manner that fits their perceptions of blackness, and record execs then identify that particular style/subject as being financially lucrative, then perhaps they're more likely to gamble on artists who deal with those market tested issues than they are on artists who, I don't know, rap about their experience as a gay male or about the importance of respecting women. Fast forward twenty or so years, and you have an entire generation of listeners and artists who have grown up with the expectation/understanding that hip-hop = x, y, and z. The above is all hypothetical, of course, and completely tangential to the discussion of Judd's comments, but the underlying point is that the potential impact of a largely white audience makes it impossible to realistically discuss hip-hop as the reflection of black culture alone.

[CuckingFunt]

*sigh* where's Midge when you need him?


It's a play on a classic line from the movie Orgazmo.
Matt Stone keeps saying "I don't want to sound like a or nothin, but..."
and says something nonsensical
like that
eventually he tells trey parker "I don't want to sound like a or nothin', but, I'd kinda like to make love to you right now"

But my point remains the same, I'd like to make love to Ashley Judd. She's a hot. I don't care what she says about hating black people, she's still grade A.

Got the reference. Just thought it was funny to throw out the gay disclaimer before expressing an interest in having sex with a member of the opposite sex.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Apparently I tried to make it funny on more than one level and ended up making it not funny at all