How far in advance? I'd assume that any such assassination attempt would take a few months to plan.
Doubting the series of events that lead to, and on the day of 9/11, as reported by both the 9/11 commission report and NIST, is hardly believing that 'Bush/Cheney brought down the towers"...but what do you expect from a proven birther...and now deather...
Which part is in doubt? or you just gonna be a like usual?
Unless Bush knew the plan....
you just did it again, dan.
I should hope they did; there are devices that can sniff out explosives after all. *shrug*
Last edited by LnGrrrR; 05-06-2011 at 06:10 PM.
Did what? I never said Bush made the plan....
I love how if this happened today they'd move him. Here we go again, apparently the secret service doesn't make mistakes and no one can critique them because we're not in the secret service and don't know as much as them.I love how you think you know more about security than the secret service.
I would critique the decision to let Kennedy ride in an open top car but apparently that would be invalidated because I'm not part of the secret service.
Yeah if I decided to hit target location A 3 months ahead with a plane I couldn't change that because planes aren't mobile. At all.
That's kinda my point. If they moved him ten minutes earlier, the terrorists could've just hit him where he moved to.
And yet, you would've had the foresight to move him at the time. The secret service and his aides are all dumber than you, apparently.
So those secret service agents were dumb too, in your opinion?
Really? How would they know where they moved him to? Did you know where the president was on 9/11?
The secret service agents that let Kennedy ride in a car with an open top may or may not have been dumb. I don't believe I ever characterized anyone as dumb.
That being said, they obviously made a mistake. To their credit, they've learned from it. I don't think I've ever seen a president in that setting again. Have you?
That brings us back to your first point. I never said anything about foresight either. I'm looking back in hindsight, actually. None of that changes the actions that were made that day included mistakes.
You are the one somehow building up the secret service as a group that never makes mistakes and making it seem I can't be critical of them for anything because I'm not an agent and if I say they made a mistake obviously I'm calling them dumb.
LNG - think about how the SS reacted with Cheney once they realized what was happening compared to how they reacted with Bush. There was an obvious delay in between the original attacks on NYC and when they realized what could happen but to act like that delay was anything but a slow reaction time is just ridiculous. This is even a far more indefensible position than defending Bush's own actions. Bush's team was even slower to react. The dude wanted to go back to Washington and had to have Rice practically shout him down on that issue.
I'm pretty sure they couldn't move him to a secure location in ten minutes. Do you think they could?
Great! So you've proven Bush/secret service made a mistake. However, I never denied it was a mistake. I just dont think it was a mistake with a great chance of operational impact.
That brings us back to your first point. I never said anything about foresight either. I'm looking back in hindsight, actually. None of that changes the actions that were made that day included mistakes.
And it's one thing to say the secret service made mistakes; it's another to imply that you would have been the one to predict otherwise in advance. People make mistakes in these situations, which is what I've been saying since the beginning.
I know they could.
Now you're just making up. I said I would have predicted something in advance?
Also if something doesn't have a chance at impacting operations then its not a mistake so you yourself are contradicting your own points. And you DID say something about foresight. Its only a few posts up.
Are you drunk?
How do you know that? Just curious.
You said it was a mistake, right? Do you think it's a mistake in hindsight, or do you think the secret service showed poor judgment at the time?
Also, earlier your posts seemed incredulous that the secret service didn't move him, as if the answer was obvious.
I said it was a mistake because 1) it looked bad politically and 2) it would be smarter to move him immediately, even if the chance of attack is infinitesmal because its better to be safe than sorry. That said, given the situation, I can excuse poor reactions.
And that foresight was a failed quotation on my part. You don't recognize your own words?
As we both said, the difference between the Secret Service teams of Cheney and Bush is pretty much night and day.
There was certainly much confusion that day. Once they finally got out of the school they realized AF1 itself might be a target, and there was a big delay while they had dogs check the plane and everything going on it on the tarmac. Why did they take that into consideration? Because that's where the President was expected to go.
After some flying in circles and arguing, Bush was sent to a nuclear bombproof bunker in Nebraksa, not Washington as Bush wished. Why? Because Bush might be expected to return to the capital where he could be attacked.
It's not a matter of what he could have done in those minutes -- it's really a matter of why the would anyone want the POTUS to stick around and stay on schedule in a vulnerable location while the nation is under attack? It's just dumb.
But yeah, thank God those self-admittedly clueless kids weren't slightly confused just because the leader of the free world had to be somewhere less easy to be killed.
considering the 2 planes that failed to hit and the number of additional targets and means of attacks possible, how can you possibly calculate the chance of operational impact? the whole point of the criticism is that Bush took an extra 10 minutes to assess the threat and response, apparently to keep some 7 year olds calm, or find out what happened to my pet goat.
not all mistakes are created equal. If I make a mistake while speaking arabic, its easily understandable because I've never studied, dont do it professionally and have in fact never done it in my life. nobody's life/career/well being/hapiness is at stake when I mispronounce/mispell a salaam alai kum. If the secret service makes a mistake with security protocol, its quite different because that is what they are trained, hired and paid to do.
If a president makes a mistake that potentially exposes his nation to attacks / re s his ability to manage the aftermath of a crisis, it is serious because that is one of his primary responsibilities; even if he has never been in such a situation in his life, the job he voluntarily campaigned for requires him to be ready for such contingencies.
Its one thing to criticize Bush's actual appraisal of the threat or his strategy to defuse it- considering the cir stances there are a number of difficulties in performing that task well, much less flawlessly- but its another thing entirely to excuse him for delaying that task, even if for 10 minutes. In times of uncertainty, with millions of lives, the economy, the well-being of your nation, , "the fate of the free world" (as he himself liked to say) at stake, 10 minutes is an eternity.
Again, if you get a call telling you your wife is in unspecified danger while you are playing with your kids, do you trust the person who called you to handle it while you finish playing with your kids so as to not alarm them, or do you leave your kids with someone you trust and go help your wife?
No one is saying Bush had to spazz out and kick the children out of the way. He just had to say excuse me and go take care of presidential business and leave the storytelling to someone else. I dont see how anyone can use the "it wasn't a big deal / it was a difficult situation to react to" excuse for this.
Last edited by diego; 05-07-2011 at 06:17 AM.
I can't really argue with any of this too much. Like you said, there was a lot of confusion that day, and mistakes were made.
Don't the "kids" realize that by his staying there, he could have been endangering them?
And yet you have, Lng.
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