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Yeah, really.
Damn, I actually learned something from this board, nice.
Yeah, really.
You are wrong, but that's okay.
Are you trolling?
Olympic Gold medal, Euroleague le & Nba le. Lock.
Bill Bradley is the only other one to accomplish this and he is in.
I'm right, but it's ok that you don't want to acknowledge it.
You could make the argument they're more or less even at the international level, and I could be probably talked into agreeing with that (depends on how you value beating Team USA since they began fielding NBA players), but with no All-NBA team selections or All-Star selections, Kukoc (who was a great player, BTW) just falls short.
Is the sky blue? Is the earth round? Is kobe an overrated chucker??
The reason why you're wrong is that you said Ginobili was "much better" and "at all levels." That's just wrong.
If you said Ginobili is the better NBA player, I would have not argued.
If you said Ginobili has had the better basketball career, I may have offered some evidence to refute but wouldn't necessarily disagree.
You said "much better," which opens up the debate quite easily.
You said "at all levels," which clearly makes you wrong. Who had a better Euroleague career?
I guess I should have been more clear by what I meant by "all levels". I think the Basketball HoF (at least from what I've heard) gauges the NBA career (if any) and International career (if any) as contributing factors for induction... by "all levels" I mean those two levels, as a group of accomplishments on each. I'm sure if we go nitpicking within each group, one player outdid the other in some respect. It's not what I was pointing at though.
I think the international career is more debatable as far as parity, but I still think Manu edges Kukoc with the Gold in the Olympics and being the leader of the first NT to beat Team USA since they began fielding NBA players. There's also the factor of how long each player's career has been in Europe. Kukoc played 6 seasons, while Manu only 4.
Why is this even a question. Question: is Reggie Miller in the HOF? No. Did Manu have a better statistical career than him? No. This includes Manu's international and NBA play combined. He hasn't. Reggied didn't get in. Why should Manu?
Reggie will likely be inducted at some point... which is what's being discussed here (unless I missed anything).
Jam with the semantic cranky goods.
It's not really that up in the air. Manu is a lockPERIOD.
Still not "much better." And it doesn't quite make sense to say "at all levels" and mean it to be ulative. Should have just said "overall basketball career." Doesn't matter how many seasons each played in Europe. Kukoc had a more impressive Euroleague career regardless.
Ginobili has had a great international career. And the gold medal in the 2004 Olympics absolutely carries some major weight on his resume. But let's not qualify it by saying "since Team USA started fielding NBA players." We could also qualify it by saying it was the weakest Team USA since it started fielding NBA players where they didn't send most of the top American players to the Olympics.
Also note that Argentina was not the first national team to beat Team USA in the Olympics since they began fielding NBA players. In that very Olympics, Team USA lost to Puerto Rico and Lithuania before being defeated by Argentina. Team USA already proved to be vulnerable to losing in the Olympcs before the medal rounds.
First of all, your switch is broken.
Secondly, terrible argument.
Hi, buddy-boy.
tee, hee.
Wasn't an argument in semantics. After he realized why he was wrong, he tried to make it an argument in semantics by "revising" what he meant. It was clear what he meant was wrong.
It's not really that up in the air. Manu is a lockPERIOD.
Is Kukoc a lock for the HOF too? If you say he's a lock, then I'd agree Ginobili is a lock too. If not, I still think it's debatable.
Kukoc (although your hypothesis is correct if TK gets in, so does Manu just because Manu's accolades are greater than TK's, but they have no bearing on one another) isn't an apples to apples comparison.
Bill Bradley is the guy to compare to. He's in.
You knew what he meant by "all around" or whatever he said. He was referring to the HOF and what it takes to get in.
Did Kukoc win a Euroleague le, Olympic Gold and NBA le? Because Manu is one of only two players to do so and the other one is in.
Manu is a lock and Kukoc has nothing to do with it.
My argument is good. Why should Manu get in before Reggie Miller? Miller's body of work > Manu's and he didn't get in. Reggie has battled MJ tooth and nail for years (won many battles but lost the wars); ditto for the Bad Boys, great Knick teams, etc. NBA didn't allow that flopping crap Manu gets away with in today's game. In the ruff and tumble '80s, 6'7" 185lb Reggie Miller did his thang. I highly doubt Manu would have fared any better. Reggie Miller game was stellar in the '80s (a real basketball era before the NBA was sissified and watered down with expansion teams) and would have been killer in today's game as well. Can you say the same about Manu in the '80s? Doubtful.
You can have "overall basketball career.".. I thought I was clear the first time, but I guess I wasn't.
Top players or not, it's something no other team did before them, and they did it right here in the US. It was historical back then and it also had an impact on how Team USA prepared their teams afterwards (especially after the second defeat in 2005). I'll have to dig up an article from back then that commented that when they got back to the hotel after the game, a couple of other teams were waiting for them in the lobby to applaud them.
I didn't say 'in the Olimpics'. Ginobili's lead Argentina was the first national team to beat Team USA since they began fielding NBA players in the 2002 World Championship (in Indiana, where Dirk was the MVP).
They're actually the only national team to this day to defeat Team USA twice since they began fielding NBA players (the second time being in Athens).
It's not really a matter of all of that. It's just a matter of how the Basketball Hall of Fame works.
I'm not arguing who's better, but there are all kinds of people in the BBHOF that never really did anything professionally.
Manu's total body of work with all that he has won and all of his personal awards makes him a lock. You can argue who is better or worse or that the NBA should have their own HOF, but with how it's currently constructed, Manu is in.
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