Did you read the le of your own thread?
Hypocrisy much?
Belittling people and/or being rude on an internet message board is a good way to boost the ego, with little to no chance of being refuted in any meaningful way (you get refuted, you just sling insults and post more wiki's).
Manny has mastered this, it seems to work well for him.
welcome to the internet.
I'm not going to excuse borrowers that didn't do their homework, but lenders know a lot better than that. People borrowing more than they can pay back, defaulting on their debt and getting their property foreclosed isn't a new occurrence. It's part of the system and has happened since credit has been offered. It has happened to all kind of people. It hasn't brought down the financial system.
Lenders have no excuses because they have a fairly large set of data to make a fairly decent determination of what the loan should be and to make decisions based on that data. When I had no credit history at all, my first line of credit was $250.
There's no way that lenders didn't know what they were issuing, and the fact that they couldn't stop issuing these junk loans fast enough just shows you how systemic the scam was.
bankers had a definite plan, void of personal moral.
home buyers were compelled by owning, and the dream of dumping their landlord.
Crookshanks is no stranger to belittling people for their opinions, but her opinions are usually refuted based on real facts.
welcome to the political forum
The personal responsibility came when those people lost their houses. Its never going to be their fault the economy collapsed because they had no say so in the banks offering bad loans everywhere, they had no role in the derivates being formed and used to package these loans, they had no role in the CDS being bought by the same companies selling the MBS because they expected and bet on their own products failing, and they sure as had no role in the ratings agencies selling AAA ratings.
Yeah, I insult people like WH, LNG, El Nono, Teysha Blue and others all the damn time in here. I insult people like Wild Cobra and and Crookshanks because they post like this which is pretty ing racist at its core (The financial crisis was caused because poor people wanted handouts is about as racist as it gets) but you're more than welcome to give them a shoulder to cry on.
That you think its about self esteem or ego boosts says more about you then it says about me.
No this will post the most vile of things then get mad because someone gives her a dose of her own . I'm sure Soul Patch's idiocy in this thread will only add to her delusions that she's so treated so god damn unfairly in this thread.
Who cares how bad the loan when you get paid more for bad loans as a broker and your firm (sup countrywide) is just going to turn around and sell those loans to some poor slobs retirement fund?
Thats not the issue though. The issue here isn't that there was a house of cards being built by a lack of oversight and gimics in the financial market its that some ing minorities got uppity and want fair lending practices. If we don't let banks discriminate on the basis of race how the can we prevent another financial crisis?
the le says democrats..I only see one.
Lol, C'mon man, your claim to fame is your ability and/or desire to argue every single subject that comes up on this forum as if you are the ever flowing fountain of truth.
Yeah, I insult people like WH, LNG, El Nono, Teysha Blue and others all the damn time in here. I insult people like Wild Cobra and and Crookshanks because they post like this which is pretty ing racist at its core (The financial crisis was caused because poor people wanted handouts is about as racist as it gets) but you're more than welcome to give them a shoulder to cry on.
That you think its about self esteem or ego boosts says more about you then it says about me.
You're a smart dude, i give you that. But your methodology is lacking. And, as im sure you are well aware of, you don't really know everything.
The argument about who caused the collapse is much like the chicken and the egg. I think they both caused it, i would probably say it is more of a 60/40 relationship with the banks taking the bulk of the blame.
I dont call that personal responsibility. What did those people do? They immediately shuffled the blame off of themselves, onto whomever they could find. Rather than say, "well , i should have probably read that loan agreement a bit better.", they play the victim and put their hands up and say, ohhh...i never knew!!!
You knew damn good and well you cant afford a 200, 500, 750k house on your 8 dollars an hour from your telemarketing job. If you didn't know, you should have educated yourself on simple banking and money keeping. You knew, you just were riding the wave and didn't want to see it.
I get it...im guilty of it too. I have more debt than i should. I'm not sitting here crying about it though, and trying to blame the sales man for making me buy that car, or that boat, or whatever. I knew what i was doing, and will pay for it.
Personal responsibility is not losing your house, in fact that is probably the opposite of personal responsibility. There mortgage is gone, you move your ass into an apartment for a fraction of your payment and move on...the bank is on the hook. I guarantee you that person that lost their house has probably already had a car or two reposed or their big screen from rent-a-center taken back, etc. That is the problem, the complete LACK of personal responsibility. Go anywhere, and its readily apparent personal responsibility is a complete afterthought. ITs one of my biggest pet peaves to be honest. its sickening.
It also isnt a race thing, this isnt specific to black/white/brown...this is an issue of greed and a me first society. While i agree, the banks should of had a moral obligation to steer customers either, away from buying all together, or to more sound financial choices in lending. They weren't legally bound to do so. They were driven, like any business is, to make a profit for their stakeholders.
Anyway, i ramble, but there is plenty of blame to be laid, but i always see people wanting to paint the borrowers as some victims of the big bad banks...i think its pretty ridiculous.
Right, so why did the bank make so many stupid loans it would be responsible for?Personal responsibility is not losing your house, in fact that is probably the opposite of personal responsibility. There mortgage is gone, you move your ass into an apartment for a fraction of your payment and move on...the bank is on the hook.
HINT: It wasn't because they thought they would be investigated.
2ND HINT: They wouldn't be responsible for them.
Yea, i worded that wrong. In no way do i think there is any personal responsibility going on in that ed up scheme. Banks or otherwise. That is the problem. You had people hungry for a piece of the pie that they werent ready for, and banks hungry to sell it to them at whatever the cots.
So you're upset that people who took out stupid loans aren't very smart?
No one has defend their decisions here AFAIK. I'm not sure what your point is. The decisions to take these loans were stupid.You knew damn good and well you cant afford a 200, 500, 750k house on your 8 dollars an hour from your telemarketing job. If you didn't know, you should have educated yourself on simple banking and money keeping. You knew, you just were riding the wave and didn't want to see it.
I don't think you understand the argument being presented here. No one is crying that the salesman forced anyone to buy something. What is being argued here is that the banks acted irresponsibly. The biggest mistake you're making is thinking this is about mortgages when its really about a severely unregulated derivates market that our economy is leveraged far too much against.I get it...im guilty of it too. I have more debt than i should. I'm not sitting here crying about it though, and trying to blame the sales man for making me buy that car, or that boat, or whatever. I knew what i was doing, and will pay for it.
If it hadn't been mortgages they would have found something else to package and sell.
People made bad decisions and they paid the price for it. I'm not sure what more you want. Yes, ideally everyone would make smart decisions but I don't expect to happen at any point.Personal responsibility is not losing your house, in fact that is probably the opposite of personal responsibility. There mortgage is gone, you move your ass into an apartment for a fraction of your payment and move on...the bank is on the hook. I guarantee you that person that lost their house has probably already had a car or two reposed or their big screen from rent-a-center taken back, etc. That is the problem, the complete LACK of personal responsibility. Go anywhere, and its readily apparent personal responsibility is a complete afterthought. ITs one of my biggest pet peaves to be honest. its sickening.
There's also the fact that those who made the bad decisions to get into subprime loans are a small fraction of our society. You make it seem as though its this problem where we're all guilty of getting in over our heads and that simply is not the case.
The OP was definitely a race thing. Maybe you skipped it over in your haste to attack me, but maybe now would be a good time to go back and review it.It also isnt a race thing, this isnt specific to black/white/brown...this is an issue of greed and a me first society. While i agree, the banks should of had a moral obligation to steer customers either, away from buying all together, or to more sound financial choices in lending. They weren't legally bound to do so. They were driven, like any business is, to make a profit for their stakeholders.
No one is saying that. Thats an argument you made up all on our own. No one is saying the people who took those loans are victims, the argument being made is that our society fell victim to a financial sector who fought regulation tooth and nail and then leveraged our entire economy on those bad decisions made by a small fraction of our population.Anyway, i ramble, but there is plenty of blame to be laid, but i always see people wanting to paint the borrowers as some victims of the big bad banks...i think its pretty ridiculous.
Do you understand that?
You really need to understand that this isn't about mortgages but rather how those mortgages were distributed through the financial sector. These packaged securities were then given AAA ratings by all of the major ratings industries and sold off as great investments.
What really gets me though, is how huge brokerages like Goldman Sachs kept selling these securities when they knew the were garbage and bought CDS against those very same securities because they knew the were destined to fail. So GS gets money on the front end, then the get the government to bail out AIG and guarantee 100% on those CDS that are now being paid with taxpayer money.
Its a scam worth of a ing mob movie and you're trying to lay the blame on the people who took out bad loans???
Yea i skipped over most of the OPs post, and my goal wasn't to attack you, i just found it funny you are in the middle of another shouting match with someone. I completely agree with the quoted statement though. Up to the part that no one is saying the borrowers are victims. There are a TON of people saying just that. Maybe not here, but they are out there.No one is saying that. Thats an argument you made up all on our own. No one is saying the people who took those loans are victims, the argument being made is that our society fell victim to a financial sector who fought regulation tooth and nail and then leveraged our entire economy on those bad decisions made by a small fraction of our population.
Do you understand that?
I guess i piece-mealed my argument together. Felt like the right place to vent my frustration with the victim mentality...Sorry if i went way off topic.
you read my posts, and you know i said numerous times there is plenty of blame to go around. My point was the entire thing originated from people borrowing money that they had no business borrowing, buying things that they had no business buying.
I completely understand all of the banks ups, and am right there with you. It is appalling how crazy and corrupt it all is. I too watched that do entary recently, about the whole thing. Absolutely nuts...to think these people are still out there, completely washed their hands of it, is just crazy.. mot hold positions in government now, to MAKE monetary policy.../facepalm.
I went off on a tangent i guess, my bad...my gripe is at the fact that no one wants to own the responsibility, across the board. Thus, we are probably doomed for a repeat.
Well I think there are plenty of people who want to hold the banks responsible but the fact is their lobby is the strongest around. I don't know how thats going to change.
As for holding people responsible, I have a question for you. Do you lock your doors when you leave your house? I'm going to assume that you do. In the ideal world, you shouldn't have to lock your property up because everyone should respect that its owned by you and they have no right to it.
But we live in a world where people will try to do things they shouldn't do so we have to protect ourselves from them. If banks offer loans that people shouldn't take its completely unrealistic to expect everyone out there to turn them down.
I dont expect people to turn them down...absolutely not...but when they come back to bite you in the ass, its on you...not the bank. Now what the bank does after you take their ty loan was your original argument, and im in complete agreement with you there. I sidetracked this train pretty good though.
my bad.
Its not a huge deal. See, unlike what you posted earlier, people do have good discussions here.
My point is: if lenders weren't actually running a scam, they would actually care about the type of loans they were issuing, including credit histories, etc.
Obviously, the fact that they could turns those ty loans in a cash cow is what killed the way the system is supposed to work.
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