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  1. #1
    Spur-taaaa TDMVPDPOY's Avatar
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    He wants israel to recognize 1960s international agreed resolution regarding borders for the 2 states...

    i see nothing wrong with that, if thats the only way to solve the stupid problem over there.

    now the problem is the fkn israelis PM, talk about how the speech identifying palestine as a recognize state, could damage relations between usa and israel in the middle east, the only thing i know is why are the israelis always holding the USA/allies to ransom over disputes in the middle east in regards to stability in that region and conflicts of both states.

    do we really need the israelis as an ally in that region? with or without them the middle east could become a seabed if we had our way, seems like they need the usa/allies support more then we need them, so why are we always bending over taking their orders? is it because the ZIONISTS are made up all jews/israelis?

  2. #2
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    A Phony Controversy and A Pointless Speech

    Posted on May 19th, 2011 by Daniel Larison


    When I listened to Obama’s speech delivered at the State Department earlier today in preparation for my next column, I didn’t find anything terribly interesting about the section on Israel and Palestine. Indeed, what little news there was in that section consisted of confirmations that the administration flatly opposes the Palestinian bid for statehood recognition at the U.N., which in itself is hardly shocking. So I was more than a little surprised that there would be such a flood of manufactured outrage over one of the least remarkable parts of the speech. At most, what Obama said represents the tiniest of incremental changes, which for some reason some administration supporters want to applaud as “bold” and “daring” and many critics want to denounce as treacherous. It isn’t bold, and it isn’t treacherous.

    This is very much like the outrage over the demand for a settlement freeze in the past two years. Opposition to settlements has been standard U.S. policy for decades, but Obama created some waves by making an issue out of it. The key to his opponents’ success on settlements was pretending that something completely unremarkable and entirely reasonable was an unspeakably monstrous idea, which then lead to Obama quickly backpedaling away from doing anything to advance his unremarkable consensus position. That seems to be the pattern. First, Obama re-states the rather bland U.S. policy consensus. Next, his critics treat this as a dramatic and radical change to current policy when it isn’t anything of the sort, and the Israeli government pretends that the consensus view is some new, horrible imposition that cannot be tolerated. At the same time, Obama’s political foes declare that he has betrayed Israel, which ought to reveal them as buffoons but instead somehow makes them seem more “credible” on foreign policy. After all of this, Obama backs down and stops saying anything about the uncontroversial position that caused the phony controversy.

    I don’t really understand why Obama gave this speech, I don’t see what he was hoping to accomplish with it, and there seems to be general agreement that it was fairly underwhelming and lacking significant proposals of what the U.S. is going to do differently. As I argue in the new column, the lack of attention to Libya was striking, and it was all the more so given the Libyan war’s supposed importance for “aligning our values and interests” and supporting protest movements elsewhere. The complete omission of any mention of the GCC’s intervention in Bahrain was also very odd. The two areas other than Israel/Palestine where U.S. policy is most directly implicated right now (i.e., Libya and the Gulf) received scant or no attention, and what attention Obama did pay to Libya was essentially a repeat of his March 28 speech justifying intervention.

    Update: Exum concludes his reaction with these remarks:
    Overall, though, I was underwhelmed and suspect most Arabs will be as well. But maybe the early analysis is right, and this speech was more aimed at a U.S. audience than at the peoples of the region itself.
    If that’s the case, I definitely don’t understand why he gave the speech. To put it bluntly, most of the U.S. audience isn’t terribly concerned about administration policy towards Bahrain or Syria or even Egypt, and Americans are mainly concerned about Libya now only because the administration dragged the U.S. into Libya. If the speech was geared towards the small fraction of the population in the U.S. that follows event in the region closely, I still don’t see what it accomplished.
    http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2011...ntless-speech/

  3. #3
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    It won't solve anything. Those who hate Israel will find something else to focus on, especially if we help them with that win.

    Israel won that land and more during a war that they didn't start, but finished.

    It is theirs. they have over the decades tried for a peaceful solution that never comes.

  4. #4
    Veteran
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    they have over the decades tried for a peaceful solution that never comes.
    That's debateable. Israel has been the initial violator of several agreements, and there's been a lot of shady behaviour by their government.

    Both sides are jacked up over there, and no one in power seems to really want peace.

  5. #5
    Veteran hater's Avatar
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    agree that nothing will change. Entire political campaigns on both sides are mainly based on the Israel/Palestine disputes. Those disputes can't disapear because then politicians would be left out on the street.

  6. #6
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    If I was Israel I would tell Obama to kiss my ass. There is no ing way I would give up the Golan Heights where Syria could again start randomly lobbing artillery s s on my heartland.

  7. #7
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    I think it's merely a starting point.

    Why should Israel dictate the terms of our billions of dollars of support, CC?

  8. #8
    TheDrewShow is salty lefty's Avatar
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    Israel

  9. #9
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    I think it's merely a starting point.

    Why should Israel dictate the terms of our billions of dollars of support, CC?
    Classic Chump straw. I'm talking Israel's right to defend itself and he comes back with with US financial support for Israel.

  10. #10
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Classic Chump straw. I'm talking Israel's right to defend itself and he comes back with with US financial support for Israel.
    It's not straw. It's a real question.

    Why do you think Israel should be given over $80 billion and counting with, as far as I see it, not one condition?

    What does the US get for its $80+ billion?

    As I said before, the 67 borders are a starting point, not an ultimatum.

  11. #11
    Veteran
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    "What does the US get for its $80+ billion"

    Legislators prevent AIPAC from attacking them.

    And of course, the MIC makes $Bs selling hardware to Israel (and Muslim countries).
    Last edited by boutons_deux; 05-20-2011 at 11:23 AM.

  12. #12
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    It's not straw. It's a real question.

    Why do you think Israel should be given over $80 billion and counting with, as far as I see it, not one condition?

    What does the US get for its $80+ billion?

    As I said before, the 67 borders are a starting point, not an ultimatum.
    If this was a negotiation then he would have done it privately. What good comes from him making a speech and demanding in public a return to the 67 borders? The guy is a tool.

  13. #13
    Orange Whip? Orange Whip? Viva Las Espuelas's Avatar
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    It's not straw. It's a real question.

    Why do you think Israel should be given over $80 billion and counting with, as far as I see it, not one condition?

    What does the US get for its $80+ billion?

    As I said before, the 67 borders are a starting point, not an ultimatum.
    So because we give them money, they should give up their land?

  14. #14
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    If this was a negotiation then he would have done it privately. What good comes from him making a speech and demanding in public a return to the 67 borders? The guy is a tool.
    lol demand.

    Talk about straw.

    So because we give them money, they should give up their land?
    Why did they give up "their" land in 1979?

    Maybe you can tell me what the US gets in return for all this money. Give it a shot.

  15. #15
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Let me conclude by talking about another cornerstone of our approach to the region, and that relates to the pursuit of peace.



    For decades, the conflict between Israelis and Arabs has cast a shadow over the region. For Israelis, it has meant living with the fear that their children could get blown up on a bus or by rockets fired at their homes, as well as the pain of knowing that other children in the region are taught to hate them. For Palestinians, it has meant suffering the humiliation of occupation, and never living in a nation of their own. Moreover, this conflict has come with a larger cost the Middle East, as it impedes partnerships that could bring greater security, prosperity, and empowerment to ordinary people.



    My Administration has worked with the parties and the international community for over two years to end this conflict, yet expectations have gone unmet. Israeli settlement activity continues. Palestinians have walked away from talks. The world looks at a conflict that has grinded on for decades, and sees a stalemate. Indeed, there are those who argue that with all the change and uncertainty in the region, it is simply not possible to move forward.



    I disagree. At a time when the people of the Middle East and North Africa are casting off the burdens of the past, the drive for a lasting peace that ends the conflict and resolves all claims is more urgent than ever.
    For the Palestinians, efforts to delegitimize Israel will end in failure. Symbolic actions to isolate Israel at the United Nations in September won't create an independent state. Palestinian leaders will not achieve peace or prosperity if Hamas insists on a path of terror and rejection. And Palestinians will never realize their independence by denying the right of Israel to exist.



    As for Israel, our friendship is rooted deeply in a shared history and shared values. Our commitment to Israel's security is unshakeable. And we will stand against attempts to single it out for criticism in international forums. But precisely because of our friendship, it is important that we tell the truth: the status quo is unsustainable, and Israel too must act boldly to advance a lasting peace.



    The fact is, a growing number of Palestinians live west of the Jordan River. Technology will make it harder for Israel to defend itself. A region undergoing profound change will lead to populism in which millions of people -- not just a few leaders -- must believe peace is possible. The international community is tired of an endless process that never produces an outcome. The dream of a Jewish and democratic state cannot be fulfilled with permanent occupation.
    Ultimately, it is up to Israelis and Palestinians to take action. No peace can be imposed upon them, nor can endless delay make the problem go away. But what America and the international community can do is state frankly what everyone knows: a lasting peace will involve two states for two peoples. Israel as a Jewish state and the homeland for the Jewish people, and the state of Palestine as the homeland for the Palestinian people; each state enjoying self-determination, mutual recognition, and peace.
    So while the core issues of the conflict must be negotiated, the basis of those negotiations is clear: a viable Palestine, and a secure Israel. The United States believes that negotiations should result in two states, with permanent Palestinian borders with Israel, Jordan, and Egypt, and permanent Israeli borders with Palestine. The borders of Israel and Palestine should be based on the 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps, so that secure and recognized borders are established for both states. The Palestinian people must have the right to govern themselves, and reach their potential, in a sovereign and contiguous state.



    As for security, every state has the right to self-defense, and Israel must be able to defend itself -- by itself -- against any threat. Provisions must also be robust enough to prevent a resurgence of terrorism; to stop the infiltration of weapons; and to provide effective border security. The full and phased withdrawal of Israeli military forces should be coordinated with the assumption of Palestinian security responsibility in a sovereign, non-militarized state. The duration of this transition period must be agreed, and the effectiveness of security arrangements must be demonstrated.



    These principles provide a foundation for negotiations. Palestinians should know the territorial outlines of their state; Israelis should know that their basic security concerns will be met. I know that these steps alone will not resolve this conflict. Two wrenching and emotional issues remain: the future of Jerusalem, and the fate of Palestinian refugees. But moving forward now on the basis of territory and security provides a foundation to resolve those two issues in a way that is just and fair, and that respects the rights and aspirations of Israelis and Palestinians.



    Recognizing that negotiations need to begin with the issues of territory and security does not mean that it will be easy to come back to the table. In particular, the recent announcement of an agreement between Fatah and Hamas raises profound and legitimate questions for Israel -- how can one negotiate with a party that has shown itself unwilling to recognize your right to exist. In the weeks and months to come, Palestinian leaders will have to provide a credible answer to that question. Meanwhile, the United States, our Quartet partners, and the Arab states will need to continue every effort to get beyond the current impasse.



    I recognize how hard this will be. Su ion and hostility has been passed on for generations, and at times it has hardened. But I'm convinced that the majority of Israelis and Palestinians would rather look to the future than be trapped in the past. We see that spirit in the Israeli father whose son was killed by Hamas, who helped start an organization that brought together Israelis and Palestinians who had lost loved ones. He said, "I gradually realized that the only hope for progress was to recognize the face of the conflict." And we see it in the actions of a Palestinian who lost three daughters to Israeli s s in Gaza. "I have the right to feel angry," he said. "So many people were expecting me to hate. My answer to them is I shall not hate.… Let us hope," he said, "for tomorrow"



    That is the choice that must be made -- not simply in this conflict, but across the entire region -- a choice between hate and hope; between the shackles of the past, and the promise of the future. It's a choice that must be made by leaders and by people, and it's a choice that will define the future of a region that served as the cradle of civilization and a crucible of strife.
    http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/po...le_east_speech

  16. #16
    I play pretty, no? TeyshaBlue's Avatar
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    lol demand.

    Talk about straw.

    Why did they give up "their" land in 1979?

    Maybe you can tell me what the US gets in return for all this money. Give it a shot.
    I dunno. A ton of weapon sales?

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...t=va&aid=11743

  17. #17
    keep asking questions George Gervin's Afro's Avatar
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    What? I didn't hear any reporting on the context of the statement from Fox News or sean Hannity.. that's really weird..

  18. #18
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    That's debateable. Israel has been the initial violator of several agreements, and there's been a lot of shady behaviour by their government.
    Yes I know. That's what the media tells you.
    Both sides are jacked up over there, and no one in power seems to really want peace.
    Maybe you should spend some time with someone who has lived in Israel, and try to understand what they know.
    Last edited by Wild Cobra; 05-20-2011 at 12:15 PM.

  19. #19
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    If I was Israel I would tell Obama to kiss my ass. There is no ing way I would give up the Golan Heights where Syria could again start randomly lobbing artillery s s on my heartland.
    Agreed.

    Why can't these people understand that Israel won the spoils of war.

  20. #20
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Yes know. That's what the media tells you.
    They told me Gingrich called for health insurance mandates too. We all know how that turned out.

    Maybe you should spend some time with someone who has lived in Israel, and try to understand what they know.
    Did you spend some time with a Palestinian who lived in Israel?

  21. #21
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Agreed.

    Why can't these people understand that Israel won the spoils of war.
    Why did they give so much of it back, WC?

  22. #22
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Why did they give so much of it back, WC?
    That's just it. That was suppose to stop all this warring. Since it didn't, why is anyone stupid enough to thing farther concessions will?

  23. #23
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    That's just it. That was suppose to stop all this warring. Since it didn't, why is anyone stupid enough to thing farther concessions will?
    You're saying they are at war with Egypt?

    Wow.

  24. #24
    Orange Whip? Orange Whip? Viva Las Espuelas's Avatar
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    lol demand.

    Talk about straw.

    Why did they give up "their" land in 1979?

    Maybe you can tell me what the US gets in return for all this money. Give it a shot.
    So because we give them money, they should give up their land?

  25. #25
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    So because we give them money, they should give up their land?
    Straw man. They give up "their" land on their own. They've done it before.

    What does the US get in return for all these billions of money, Viva?

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