Dirk is one of the top 2 players in the NBA

[stretch]

Based on these playoffs and these playoffs alone, there's a strong enough argument to make that Dirk is THE top player in the league. He's not better than LeBron but I think he's played better up to this point in the post season.

Dwight Howard puts up better all around numbers than Dirk. But there's something intangible that D12 lacks. As impactful as his defense and rebounding and even sometimes his offense is, you just don't get the sense that he alone can will his team to win or put the team on his back and deliver. You get that sense from Dirk. Perhaps it's the bias of offensive players getting more due than defensive players. I don't know. But going into the fourth quarter with the score tied and I had to choose either Dwight or Dirk to win the game any way possible, defense, offense, rebounding, playmaking, what have you, I would take Dirk over Dwight. No matter what the overall stats say, I would trust Dirk more to find a way to will the team to victory. But I guess it's a feeling that comes from the moment. I'm sure the answer would be different in the 2009 playoffs around this time.

I think scoring/playmaking ability is the reason you trust Dirk to put a team on his back over Dwight. Defense, rebounding, and all that still is extremely important, but at the end of the day, it doesnt matter how many rebounds, steals, blocks you have... all that matters is having more points than your opponent. Rebounds, steals, and blocks help you get more chances to get points, and prevents your opponent from getting points, but in the end, points are the most valuable stat a team can have.

I think a good comparison would be Timmy in his prime, or Howard. Both are a lot alike, in that they are/were monsters on defense and rebounding. In the end, I along with anyone else would take Timmy because when Timmy was dialed in, there is not a single player on Earth who can stop him from getting his team points, whether by scoring himself, or finding others for easy open shots. You can't say the same about Howard though.

People put teams on their backs by being able to score points easily.

[Killakobe81]

An argument can be made at the moment that dirk is the "baddest man" on the planet that dribbles a ball. But let's not get carried away. I think if Dirk rings, this Playoff run will rank with shaq in 2000, Hakeem's back2 back, and one duncan's (forget the year) as the best playoff runs since MJ. But that still doesnt mean he is a top 2 player.

This is very subjective but if Orlando is called and asked to trade Dirk for Dwight (unless they could NOt re-sign him) they laugh and say no. Chicago says no for rose and Miami would not trade Wade or Lebron. Not saying they are all definitely better but a reasonable person could argue they are especially when you factor in defense. After that most would say yes unless they had sentimental or marketing reasons not to like the Lakers with Kobe or Spurs with Duncan.

[Killakobe81]

Based on these playoffs and these playoffs alone, there's a strong enough argument to make that Dirk is THE top player in the league. He's not better than LeBron but I think he's played better up to this point in the post season.
Dwight Howard puts up better all around numbers than Dirk. But there's something intangible that D12 lacks. As impactful as his defense and rebounding and even sometimes his offense is, you just don't get the sense that he alone can will his team to win or put the team on his back and deliver. You get that sense from Dirk. Perhaps it's the bias of offensive players getting more due than defensive players. I don't know. But going into the fourth quarter with the score tied and I had to choose either Dwight or Dirk to win the game any way possible, defense, offense, rebounding, playmaking, what have you, I would take Dirk over Dwight. No matter what the overall stats say, I would trust Dirk more to find a way to will the team to victory. But I guess it's a feeling that comes from the moment. I'm sure the answer would be different in the 2009 playoffs around this time.

Agree with both parts of that statement ...

[dirk4mvp]

Dirk is playing how he's played for years. He finally has a team around him.

With the way some people on this forum are acting, it seems like Dirk just figured out how to play basketball this post season.

[stretch]

This is very subjective but if Orlando is called and asked to trade Dirk for Dwight (unless they could NOt re-sign him) they laugh and say no. Chicago says no for rose and Miami would not trade Wade or Lebron. Not saying they are all definitely better but a reasonable person could argue they are especially when you factor in defense.

This is flawed reasoning as well, because some of it has to do with how the teams are built, and the age factor.

I think a better way to go about it, is by determining who you would most like to build a team from scratch around this year.

Right now, Dirk of course should be in the top 5, and the way he has been playing in these playoffs, some may even consider him as #1. I don't, as I would take Lebron 1st, but I can see arguments being made.

However I will say this... I don't think there is a star in the league that could produce more with less "star" help than Dirk. If you gave Lebron, Kobe, Dwight, Durant or other such guys teams similar to Dirk, in that they are surrounded with a well balanced supporting cast, but without a clearcut legit #2 scoring option, I don't know if any of their teams will do as well as Dirk's does, except maybe Lebron, considering what he was able to pull off in Cleveland with that bag of a team.

[endrity]

An argument can be made at the moment that dirk is the "baddest man" on the planet that dribbles a ball. But let's not get carried away. I think if Dirk rings, this Playoff run will rank with shaq in 2000, Hakeem's back2 back, and one duncan's (forget the year) as the best playoff runs since MJ. But that still doesnt mean he is a top 2 player.

This is very subjective but if Orlando is called and asked to trade Dirk for Dwight (unless they could NOt re-sign him) they laugh and say no. Chicago says no for rose and Miami would not trade Wade or Lebron. Not saying they are all definitely better but a reasonable person could argue they are especially when you factor in defense. After that most would say yes unless they had sentimental or marketing reasons not to like the Lakers with Kobe or Spurs with Duncan.

That's got to do with age. But if you call them right now, and say who do you want for this playoff run, they would think hard about it.

[DAF86]

Man, Dirk most have done something to you cause the hate is unbelievable. And this is coming from a guy who thinks Howard should have won an MVP this year btw.

Look, I said LeBron is the only guy ahead of Dirk. Howard, to me is the other guy who is arguably better right now. I think Dirk is ahead of both Kobe and Wade. CP3 has to prove he is all the way back physically.

First, stop with all the regular season stats. Durant just called to say they are not necessarily the best measuring stick. Dirk clearly paces himself a lot during the season, as he should. His shooting though was phenomenal and allowed him to score a lot, 23 ppg, with very few shots and energy expanded. As the playoffs have shown over and over again, Dirk is probably the most talented offensive guy the in the league, despite the ppg numbers from the season.

The other key point, which is maybe not as important during the season, but key in the playoffs is his FT shooting. Because of it, the Magic completely change the way they play offense in the last few minutes of the game. And different is not better in this case. Their execution becomes Thunder-like, because they need to protect Howard. Very shortly, these last two comebacks don't happen if Howard is there instead of Dirk. He can't take over games. That is the key measuring stick for a franchise player.

I hate Dirk because I say that Dwight should be ranked ahead of him? I've praised Dirk a lot during this season the thing is you just notice when I criticize him or like in this case I think a player is better than him. Even you are saying that Dwight could be ahead of him, why are you picking on me for saying the same? I don't get it.

And I didn't post any regular season stats, all the stats I posted in this thread are postseason stats.

[badfish22]

the amount of effort DAF puts in to discredit Dirk is embarrassing.

[Ghazi]

badfish22

[DAF86]

the amount of effort DAF puts in to discredit Dirk is embarrassing.

Yeah, saying he's a top 3/5 player in the league is discrediting him.

[endrity]

Yeah, saying he's a top 3/5 player in the league is discrediting him.

You should say that to yourself a bit more often, because you never lose a good opportunity to knock him down.

[DAF86]

You should say that to yourself a bit more often, because you never lose a good opportunity to knock him down.

I like arguing with Mavsfans, is the funniest part of ST.

[Nathan89]

The top 2 players in the Nba meet in the finals. I wonder when the last time that happened was.

[Amaso]

The top 2 players in the Nba meet in the finals. I wonder when the last time that happened was.

Damn, it has been a long time. Kobe/Lebron have been the best 2 for the past 4-5 years or so now, and they obviously haven't been in the finals together. Then before that was Kobe/Duncan/Shaq and they were all in the same conference.

[endrity]

The top 2 players in the Nba meet in the finals. I wonder when the last time that happened was.

Probably 97.

[TD 21]

The hyperbole is Walton-esque at this point. It's '06 all over again, when the masses claimed going into the Finals that he was a better player than Wade. Have you people lost your minds? Not only James, but Wade and Howard are clearly better than him, too. This has nothing to do with my being a Spurs fan and him being a Mav, or with him being white or any other thing Mavs fans want to say or infer. I've always had a hard time putting largely one dimensional players in the top five. I never had Iverson in my top five, either.

I'm going to give Bryant the start of next season to see where he's at before making a final determination, because he wasn't fully healthy at the end of this past season. And with an all-time great, I'm always hesitant to prematurely drop them. I'm also going to do the same for Paul. Year two after knee surgery, he could return to form. If he does, I've got him in the top four. Rose also merits strong consideration.

Taking a small sample size and jumping to conclusions is foolish, though. For the 2010 calendar year, Ginobili was a top 5 player. He was better than Bryant. But that still didn't make him better overall. The same thing goes for Nowitzki, in comparison to Wade, Howard, etc.

[Amaso]

The hyperbole is Walton-esque at this point. It's '06 all over again, when the masses claimed going into the Finals that he was a better player than Wade. Have you people lost your minds? Not only James, but Wade and Howard are clearly better than him, too. This has nothing to do with my being a Spurs fan and him being a Mav, or with him being white or any other thing Mavs fans want to say or infer. I've always had a hard time putting largely one dimensional players in the top five. I never had Iverson in my top five, either.

I'm going to give Bryant the start of next season to see where he's at before making a final determination, because he wasn't fully healthy at the end of this past season. And with an all-time great, I'm always hesitant to prematurely drop them. I'm also going to do the same for Paul. Year two after knee surgery, he could return to form. If he does, I've got him in the top four. Rose also merits strong consideration.

Taking a small sample size and jumping to conclusions is foolish, though. For the 2010 calendar year, Ginobili was a top 5 player. He was better than Bryant. But that still didn't make him better overall. The same thing goes for Nowitzki, in comparison to Wade, Howard, etc.

notsureifsrs.jpg

[endrity]

The hyperbole is Walton-esque at this point. It's '06 all over again, when the masses claimed going into the Finals that he was a better player than Wade. Have you people lost your minds? Not only James, but Wade and Howard are clearly better than him, too. This has nothing to do with my being a Spurs fan and him being a Mav, or with him being white or any other thing Mavs fans want to say or infer. I've always had a hard time putting largely one dimensional players in the top five. I never had Iverson in my top five, either.

I'm going to give Bryant the start of next season to see where he's at before making a final determination, because he wasn't fully healthy at the end of this past season. And with an all-time great, I'm always hesitant to prematurely drop them. I'm also going to do the same for Paul. Year two after knee surgery, he could return to form. If he does, I've got him in the top four. Rose also merits strong consideration.

Taking a small sample size and jumping to conclusions is foolish, though. For the 2010 calendar year, Ginobili was a top 5 player. He was better than Bryant. But that still didn't make him better overall. The same thing goes for Nowitzki, in comparison to Wade, Howard, etc.

What exactly makes Wade better than him? Have you seen him this last round, his body is breaking down at 29.

[badfish22]

TD 21 being intentionally re ed again

[TD 21]

What exactly makes Wade better than him? Have you seen him this last round, his body is breaking down at 29.

He's a much more well rounded player. He's proven he can be a go-to player on a championship team. And statistically, there's nothing to suggest Nowitzki is better. PER isn't the be all end all, but when you're annually 2-4 when healthy, like Wade is, you are clearly amongst the top three players in the game. You don't do that by accident.

So because he had a bad round, clearly due to injury, we're supposed to ignore all the years of evidence that suggests he's better? Of course he's breaking down, look at the way he plays.

Would any non Mavs fans have even argued this pre-playoffs? But now everything's changed on the basis of a month and change? That makes no sense. If you want to say Nowitzki is playing as the second best player at the moment, I could see that, but not overall. Keep some perspective.

[DMC]

With the way some people on this forum are acting, it seems like Dirk just figured out how to play basketball this post season.

They only watch post season games I think.

Dirk has been a ing terror forever. If anyone knows that, it's Spur fan.

[jARS mEsH sEt]

This is where the limitations of PER are clear. Asik, as even Hollinger admits, is an elite defender of the league. Yet that is not refleced in PER.

You're absolutely correct.

I have no problem admitting and recognizing the limits of PER.

That being said, I do tend to appreciate PER slightly more than merely performing the "eye test" backed up with arbitrary stats (this guy is better because he scores more points per game and just look at him!) as most sports fans do.

PER certainly is not the end all be all, but it's decent as a first look. I agree with you about Asik.


My "eye test" tells me that Dirk has been better than CP3 in the postseason. If I had to choose one player to build a team around, I'd choose Dirk. I would not mindlessly go by PER ranks and say "Oh look CP3 is better than Dirk clearly I should pick him as my franchise player!"

PER is merely a tool, it's not meant to be the end all be all ultimate ranking list.

[jARS mEsH sEt]

An argument can be made at the moment that dirk is the "baddest man" on the planet that dribbles a ball. But let's not get carried away. I think if Dirk rings, this Playoff run will rank with shaq in 2000, Hakeem's back2 back, and one duncan's (forget the year) as the best playoff runs since MJ. But that still doesnt mean he is a top 2 player.

This is very subjective but if Orlando is called and asked to trade Dirk for Dwight (unless they could NOt re-sign him) they laugh and say no. Chicago says no for rose and Miami would not trade Wade or Lebron. Not saying they are all definitely better but a reasonable person could argue they are especially when you factor in defense. After that most would say yes unless they had sentimental or marketing reasons not to like the Lakers with Kobe or Spurs with Duncan.

Dallas would scoff at giving away Dirk for Wade alone.

Lebron and Dirk > Wade and Lebron

Wade for Dirk would be a steal for Miami.

So no, I'm not sure I agree when you say Miami would not trade Wade OR Lebron for Dirk.

[Nathan89]

He's a much more well rounded player. He's proven he can be a go-to player on a championship team. And statistically, there's nothing to suggest Nowitzki is better. PER isn't the be all end all, but when you're annually 2-4 when healthy, like Wade is, you are clearly amongst the top three players in the game. You don't do that by accident.

So because he had a bad round, clearly due to injury, we're supposed to ignore all the years of evidence that suggests he's better? Of course he's breaking down, look at the way he plays.

Would any non Mavs fans have even argued this pre-playoffs? But now everything's changed on the basis of a month and change? That makes no sense. If you want to say Nowitzki is playing as the second best player at the moment, I could see that, but not overall. Keep some perspective.

What are you talking about a month and change? The guy would have led the Mavs to the best record in the NBA and got the MVP if he didn't get hurt this season. Month and change...

[endrity]

He's a much more well rounded player. He's proven he can be a go-to player on a championship team. And statistically, there's nothing to suggest Nowitzki is better. PER isn't the be all end all, but when you're annually 2-4 when healthy, like Wade is, you are clearly amongst the top three players in the game. You don't do that by accident.

So because he had a bad round, clearly due to injury, we're supposed to ignore all the years of evidence that suggests he's better? Of course he's breaking down, look at the way he plays.

Would any non Mavs fans have even argued this pre-playoffs? But now everything's changed on the basis of a month and change? That makes no sense. If you want to say Nowitzki is playing as the second best player at the moment, I could see that, but not overall. Keep some perspective.

You do know that Nowitzki has led the league in PER right? Something that Wade has never done. Wade has never been a better go to guy in the NBA, never.

I argued before the playoffs that Dirk should have been a First Team All-NBA, and Wade shouldn't even with a declining Kobe. The only reason why it didn't happen was because he got hurt, and the Mavs lost a lot of ground during the period. But the man was probably having his best shooting season up to that point, and was probably poised to take the MVP. So yes, this was also something that we believed before the playoffs.

I disagree with Howard, but I understand his argument because of how much of a difference he makes on defense. But I can't see much of an argument for Wade once you get past the fact that he is a guard and makes a lot of Sportcenter plays.