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  1. #726
    No darkness Cry Havoc's Avatar
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    "this is nothing like Chernobyl"

    anybody who keeps saying this is in a sad state of affairs
    To be fair, anyone who says that is accurate. Chenobyl and Fukushima are vastly different from each other.

  2. #727
    Veteran hater's Avatar
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    To be fair, anyone who says that is accurate. Chenobyl and Fukushima are vastly different from each other.
    sorry about your sad state of affairs.... well, actually you might be right, Fukushima could be alot worse:


    http://www.businessinsider.com/level...compare-2011-4

    Nuclear Fuel Not Spent

    Nuclear experts are cautioning that the situation at Fukushima is still very much in play. The amount of radioactive fuel present at Fukushima dwarfs Chernobyl. In the ATCA briefing of March 19th, "Fukushima: How To Avoid A Potential Chernobyl?" we wrote:

    "The world media likes to focus on the potential of a nuclear meltdown at Fukushima's multiple reactors, including melted cores, exposed uranium and plutonium etc. In fact, the old fuel rods are much more dangerous than the nuclear meltdown scenarios because there is more radiation in the unguarded spent fuel pools than in the reactors themselves."

    "The Japanese nuclear crisis has the potential to be larger than Chernobyl because there are several tons of nuclear waste stored in the reactor cores that could be lofted into the environment in the event of explosion. Cracks are already there in the containment vessels of reactors one, two and three. If those cracks grow, or if there is an explosion, this could be something beyond Chernobyl, because of the various fission products being released into the environment."

    Where most attention has centred on reactors #1, #2 and #3, there is also concern amongst nuclear scientists about the separate spent fuel pond in reactor building #4. In the week following the tsunami, it became clear that the spent fuel rod cooling pond was running dry, meaning that fuel rods would soon over-heat. This meant the likely degradation, fire or disinegration of their zirconium alloy cladding. Zirconium at those temperatures separates water into oxygen and hydrogen, which as we have seen is highly explosive. By Tepco's own admission, there is a risk that then a nuclear chain reaction could begin spontaneously, the dreaded “inadvertent criticality”. This would mean that the potential for a very large atmospheric release of as much as 250 tons of radioactive fuel material sitting in that pond could then not be discounted. If that should happen, the drinking water, green leaf vegetables, and some of the food chain of the northern hemisphere could be potentially affected.

    If there were to be an energetic event, there would be a very large radioactive release indeed. The priority is, as it has been all along, to restore adequate coolant to stabilise and to reduce the energy release in the spent fuel ponds and the reactors themselves -- while hoping that earthquake aftershocks, bad weather and further power outages do not cause significant further delays.

    Longer Term Exposure

    Experts say this accident may turn out to be much bigger and more destructive than the Chernobyl meltdown in 1986, labeled as history’s worst nuclear accident. The Japanese government has sought to calm the markets by downplaying what has really gone on at the Fukushima nuclear reactors. Today the Japanese prime minister said the situation is improving, even after the announcement that the threat level had been raised to 7. But it’s clear a nuclear power plant housing six separate reactors -- with four of them in trouble -- including several large pools holding huge quan ies of spent fuel rods which are undergoing repeated explosions and sporadic episodes of nuclear fission could certainly dwarf the Chernobyl accident in size, complexity, danger and potential for long-term damage.

    The Russian View

    Fukushima is much bigger than Chernobyl according to some Russian nuclear experts such as Natalia Mironova, a thermodynamic engineer, interviewed by Agence France Presse (AFP). The nuclear disaster at Japan's Fukushima power plant is "much bigger than Chernobyl" and could rewrite the international scale used to measure the severity of atomic accidents. Chernobyl was level seven and it had only one reactor and lasted only two weeks. We have now [four] weeks (at Fukushima) and we have four reactors which we know are in very dangerous situations," she warned. "Chernobyl was a dirty bomb explosion. The next dirty bomb is Fukushima and it will cost much more" in economic and human terms, she added, because of the urban population centres in its proximity.


    Caesium Fallout Rivals Chernobyl

    The fallout of radioactive Caesium from Fukushima already rivals Chernobyl. Radioactive caesium and iodine have been deposited in northern Japan far from Fukushima at levels that were classified as highly contaminated after Chernobyl. The readings were taken by the Japanese science ministry, MEXT (Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology), and reveal high levels of caesium-137 and iodine-131 outside the 30-kilometre evacuation zone, mostly to the north-north-west. Radioactive caesium is one of the main dangers from the Japanese nuclear accident. Over the longer term, the big threat to human health is caesium-137, which has a half-life of 30 years. At that rate of disintegration it takes over 200 years to reduce it to 1 percent of its former level. It is caesium-137 that still contaminates much of the Ukraine area around the Chernobyl reactor which is designated as a dead zone. Caesium-137 mixes easily with water and is chemically similar to potassium. It thus mimics how potassium gets metabolised in the human body and can enter through many food chains, including cows grazing in the countryside and the milk they produce. The relatively low levels as defined in a glass of milk or a bowl of spinach are deceptive because this radioactive contamination is bioac ulative, especially in mammals, and grows with each additional exposure over long periods of time.

    Comparisons Chernobyl vs Fukushima

    After the 1986 Chernobyl accident, the most highly contaminated areas were defined as those with over 1,490 kiloBecquerels per square metre (kBq/m2) of caesium. Agricultural produce from soil with 550 kBq/m2 was destroyed. People living within 30 kilometres of the Fukushima plant have evacuated or been advised to stay indoors. Since March 18th, MEXT has repeatedly found caesium levels above 550 kBq/m2 in an area some 45 kilometres wide lying 30 to 50 kilometres north-west of the plant. The highest was 6,400 kBq/m2, about 35 kilometres away, while caesium reached 1,816 kBq/m2 in Nihonmatsu City and 1,752 kBq/m2 in the town of Kawamata, where iodine-131 levels of up to 12,560 kBq/m2 have also been measured. [New Scientist]

    What About Plutonium?

    In the ATCA briefing of March 22nd, "Japan Nuclear Crisis: What About The Plutonium MOX?" we wrote:

    "Reactor 3 suffered significant damage after the quake and the tsunami waves on March 11th;
    . The roof of the building was destroyed by a powerful explosion ... caused by an ac ulation of hydrogen;
    . Reactor 3 raises the most concern since it runs on MOX or Mixed Oxide fuel -- a mixture of plutonium and uranium;
    . MOX is far more dangerous than uranium on its own; and
    . MOX is two million times more deadly than normal enriched uranium."

    "What if the release of elements in the smoke and vapour were not just radioactive iodine, caesium and uranium but a MOX combination including plutonium?
    . This would explain why the workers were immediately evacuated given the deadly nature of plutonium;
    . Plutonium is extremely difficult to detect because it emits limited gamma rays -- unlike radioactive iodine, caesium and uranium -- and it is deadly;
    . Plutonium release would not show up as a radiation e;
    . Plutonium 239 is the deadliest element known to man;
    . Half-life of Plutonium-239 in MOX is 24,000 years: Few milligrams of P-239 escaping in a smoke plume will contaminate soil for tens of thousands of years; and
    . Plutonium comes from Pluto: god of wealth and power and also the god of and death."

    While radioactive iodine and cesium (half-life 8 days and 30 years, respectively) are the most immediate threats to human health, one of the plants is leaking plutonium having a half-life of 24,000 years. The “safe” levels of radiation quoted by authorities are generally what would be experienced standing next to the hot isotopes, but if these are ingested the consequences are much more severe. If one millionth of a gram of plutonium lands in a human lung, the individual gets lung cancer. Plutonium along with other radioactive isotopes is leaking through tunnels to the ocean where it will be distributed locally by currents, concentrated in fish, and distributed world wide by migratory fish.

    What Does A Level 7 Mean?

    A level seven rating is defined as "An event resulting in an environmental release corresponding to a quan y of radioactivity radiologically equivalent to a release to the atmosphere of more than several tens of thousands of TeraBecquerels (TBq) of Iodine-131." One TeraBecquerel (TBq) equals one Trillion Becquerels of radioactivity. The Japanese Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency (NISA) puts the Fukushima figure at 370,000 TBq of Iodine-131 equivalent; the Nuclear Safety Commission, which has a more over-arching role in the Japanese system, says 630,000 TBq. Either way, it's clearly beyond the threshold for classification as an INES -- International Nuclear Event Scale -- level seven event, although an order of magnitude lower than the 5.2 million TBq released from the Chernobyl accident, ie, only 10% of that radiation quantum so far.

    Conclusion

    Level 7 is the most serious level on INES -- International Nuclear Event Scale -- describing "a major release of radioactive material with widespread health and environmental effects requiring implementation of planned and extended countermeasures." Although, by some measures, Fukushima has not reached the level of radioactive contamination caused by Chernobyl yet, we would advise caution because of the presence of plutonium and spent fuel rod pools with hundreds of thousands of tons of radioactive nuclear material. Even when we discount the Russian view and the caesium fallout levels rivalling Chernobyl, if things do not continue to go right, the potential exists for Fukushima to be much bigger than Chernobyl.

    Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/level...#ixzz1OcKLsXO2

  3. #728
    9mm nkdlunch's Avatar
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    Kurosawa = Nostradamus?

  4. #729
    selbstverständlich Agloco's Avatar
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    Conclusion

    Level 7 is the most serious level on INES -- International Nuclear Event Scale -- describing "a major release of radioactive material with widespread health and environmental effects requiring implementation of planned and extended countermeasures." Although, by some measures, Fukushima has not reached the level of radioactive contamination caused by Chernobyl yet, we would advise caution because of the presence of plutonium and spent fuel rod pools with hundreds of thousands of tons of radioactive nuclear material. Even when we discount the Russian view and the caesium fallout levels rivalling Chernobyl, if things do not continue to go right, the potential exists for Fukushima to be much bigger than Chernobyl.

  5. #730
    I cannot grok its fullnes leemajors's Avatar
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  6. #731
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Of course heavy elements that travel by rain water will concentrate in areas like that.

    I noticed the initial 0.10 was on a hand rail, wet with rain water too. was the steady 0.10 because it was still wet with that water?

    Images and videos can be deceiving from second hand accounts.

    I'm all for the truth, but this looks like hype to me.

  7. #732
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    Could all the radiation fill up the Superdome yet?

  8. #733
    selbstverständlich Agloco's Avatar
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    Of course heavy elements that travel by rain water will concentrate in areas like that.

    I noticed the initial 0.10 was on a hand rail, wet with rain water too. was the steady 0.10 because it was still wet with that water?

    Images and videos can be deceiving from second hand accounts.

    I'm all for the truth, but this looks like hype to me.
    The 802 is an accurate dosimeter. I've used these types a time or two during my inspections with the IAEA. It's not all that common here in the US.

    Having said that, I'm not sure about it's accuracy for surface readings such as the ones being performed in this video. To put the numbers in context, 5.77 uSv/hr (the max seen I think) equates to roughly 14 times normal background radiation dose. Radiation ac ulates in dirt (during visits to Chernobyl, one of the biggest rules was to stay on the asphalt or concrete) Understand, that you'd need to have an unshielded body part in constant contact with that patch of dirt for a year to get to that 14x exposure level. At one meter, which is the average height of the lowest body parts which are radiation sensitive (I'll let your imaginations figure that out.....), the dose rate is 1/1000th of what it is at the point he took those readings (which is the surface). We can also presume that said body parts are covered so that dose is predominantly from gammas.

    Note also that the ulative dose on that dosimeter reads 11.4 uSv, well below the threshold for worry.

    I'm not downplaying the severity of this event. I'm simply putting what you see in the video in it's proper context. It's good that people are taking the initiative and reading the dose rate regularly. With what's been coming from the Japanese government and TEPCO, you can't be too cautious.

  9. #734
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    The 802 is an accurate dosimeter. I've used these types a time or two during my inspections with the IAEA. It's not all that common here in the US.
    I like it when people know what they are talking about here.

    I looked up the 802. Now I see the 0.10 reading is it's minimum reportable dose.

    tld Dosimeters

  10. #735
    selbstverständlich Agloco's Avatar
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    I like it when people know what they are talking about here.

    I looked up the 802. Now I see the 0.10 reading is it's minimum reportable dose.

    tld Dosimeters
    Wrong one,this isn't a TLD ....it's this one:

    http://ndtequipment.en.made-in-china...r-DP802I-.html


    Response is down to 10 nanoSieverts/hour

    Main specifications
    Measuring range: Dose rate: 0.01 µ Sv/h ~30mSv/h
    ulate dose: 0.00 µ Sv ~999.9mSv
    Energy range: 40Kev~1.5Mev
    Energy response error: ≤ ± 30%(according to 137CS)
    Relative basic error: ≤ ± 10%
    Measuring time: Automatic adjustment according to radiation, quick response.

    Alarm value: 0.5\1.0\2.5\10\30\50\100\500 µ Sv/h
    Protective alarm response time: ≤ 5 second
    Display: LCD
    Display unit: Dose rate (µ Sv/h or mSv/h) and ulate dose (µ Sv or mSV)
    Power: AAA battery 1PC, 15 days working time
    Size: 90*60*17 (mm)
    Weight: 80g.

  11. #736
    No darkness Cry Havoc's Avatar
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    Surprised no one posted this yet:

    http://www.thirdage.com/news/fukushi...ays_06-09-2011

  12. #737
    No darkness Cry Havoc's Avatar
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  13. #738
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Do they call it the "The Brazil Syndrome?"
    Last edited by Wild Cobra; 06-10-2011 at 12:03 PM.

  14. #739
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Radioactive cesium exceeding the legal limit was detected in tea made in a factory in Shizuoka City, more than 300 kilometers away from the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant. Shizuoka Prefecture is one of the most famous tea producing areas in Japan.

    A tea distributor in Tokyo reported to the prefecture that it detected high levels of radioactivity in the tea shipped from the city. The prefectural government confirmed the contamination on Thursday, detecting 679 becquerels per kilogram of radioactive cesium. The legal limit is 500 becquerels.
    http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/10_01.html

  15. #740
    selbstverständlich Agloco's Avatar
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    Fukushima workers' exposure tops 650mSV
    http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/10_33.html

    Children in Fukushima to be given dosimeters
    http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/10_08.html

  16. #741
    No darkness Cry Havoc's Avatar
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    To be fair, agloco, weren't the Chernobyl workers subjected to 5-15 SV (not mSV) of radiation when they worked on the plant after it exploded?

  17. #742
    selbstverständlich Agloco's Avatar
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    To be fair, agloco, weren't the Chernobyl workers subjected to 5-15 SV (not mSV) of radiation when they worked on the plant after it exploded?
    Indeed, the scale is quite different. These posts weren't intended to draw parallels to Chernobyl, they were simply to disseminate some facts about the shady practice occurring at Fukushima and the public response to it.

    The dose received by the Fukushima workers is below the threshold for deterministic effects (~1 Sv), but quite worrisome when considering stochastic effects such as long term cancer induction.

  18. #743
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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  19. #744
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    One of my favorite words.


    HA!






    (seriously though, it is)

  20. #745
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    "melt-through"

    I kind of suspected this, based on reports of groundwater contamination.

    Comments Darrin?

    Is it "somewhere" near Chernobyl yet?

  21. #746
    Troll
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    The 802 is an accurate dosimeter. I've used these types a time or two during my inspections with the IAEA. It's not all that common here in the US.

    Having said that, I'm not sure about it's accuracy for surface readings such as the ones being performed in this video. To put the numbers in context, 5.77 uSv/hr (the max seen I think) equates to roughly 14 times normal background radiation dose. Radiation ac ulates in dirt (during visits to Chernobyl, one of the biggest rules was to stay on the asphalt or concrete) Understand, that you'd need to have an unshielded body part in constant contact with that patch of dirt for a year to get to that 14x exposure level. At one meter, which is the average height of the lowest body parts which are radiation sensitive (I'll let your imaginations figure that out.....), the dose rate is 1/1000th of what it is at the point he took those readings (which is the surface). We can also presume that said body parts are covered so that dose is predominantly from gammas.

    Note also that the ulative dose on that dosimeter reads 11.4 uSv, well below the threshold for worry.

    I'm not downplaying the severity of this event. I'm simply putting what you see in the video in it's proper context. It's good that people are taking the initiative and reading the dose rate regularly. With what's been coming from the Japanese government and TEPCO, you can't be too cautious.

    IAEA? I have a feeling I know you. Keep up the good work. Just got back from Japan myself and have similar sentiments on the situation.

    Also, 5.77 uSv/hr in soil may be also indicative of an potential internal exposure, and I'm sure you know, could have bigger implications. Although, I'm more concerned about crude products in soil personally. Toulene, Benzene, etc are more widespread contaminants than this but you won't hear most complain about that, conservative or liberal..

    The highest external exposure recorded in the video was at 5.77 uSv/hr and is near the 5 rem annual limit for US radiation workers..but it would require 24/7 exposure. Not really practical and not an big deal since the 5 rem whole body limit is well below any attributable effects, many communities get more than this from background exposure

    Good job keeping comments under control, especially with Wild Cobra, Darrin, Yoni and Mouse . Every time I lurk here I notice their "expert" claims on every matter that sound ridiculous . Especially on topics like this. It doesn't help when people who actually protect the public from things like this are given spokespeople that dedicate their worthless lives to comment posting.

    Mouse:
    People who scream constantly about small amounts of radiation , even on the other side of the world while ignoring the petrochemical plant a few miles away with multiple issues have a mental disorder, It's called "stupid." Next thing you know, we will have faked nuclear energy just like the moon landings.

    Wild Cobra:
    Just "knowing a guy on a nuclear sub" or being in the "nuclear theater in Europe" does not qualify you to say anything relevant on this matter. Heck, you still think Saddam had nuclear WMD's.

    Allah, God, Rah bless America.

  22. #747
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    I still want to know if they call it "The Brazil Syndrome" over there.

  23. #748
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    It keeps getting "better"

    High levels of radioactive strontium fund near Fukushima

    More bad news from Japan – in the wake of last week’s revelation that 3 of the 4 reactors had gone into meltdown and beyond, we now learn that high levels of radioactivity – in particular, particles of strontium 89 and 90 – are being found in groundwater and sea water around the facility, and even further than 60 miles away.

    Now that they’re finding levels of strontium up to 240 times the legal limit (via), it’s a whole other ball game. When you ingest strontium 90 into your body – either by breathing it, drinking it in water, or eating it in your food – it gravitates toward your bones. It remains there for years, irradiating your tissues and potentially causing bone cancer or leukemia. And stontium doesn’t decay quickly – it has a half-life of 29 years, keeping the danger level in the hundreds of years.

    And now it’s in the soil, in the groundwater, and in the ocean. As it’s ingested by plants and animals up the food chain, it will get more and more concentrated, too. Seafood from the region will be too toxic to eat for years, and agriculture in the surrounding country will be completely out of the question.

    Source: Red Green & Blue (http://s.tt/12Eon)

  24. #749
    selbstverständlich Agloco's Avatar
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    I still want to know if they call it "The Brazil Syndrome" over there.
    Why?

  25. #750
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    As opposed to us here in the USA calling a meltdown The China Syndrome. Just adding some humor, but you're not originally from the states. Are you. I'm thinking you missed the cultural reference.

    Brazil is the closest country opposite Japan on the globe.

    Wiki; China Syndrome:
    The China Syndrome is a term invented to describe one possible result of a severe nuclear meltdown in which molten reactor core components penetrate their containment vessel and building. The term is misleading, since molten material from such an event could not melt through the crust of the Earth nor reach China from USA.

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