Brian Cardinal >>> Bonner

[Blake]

Pop's round 1 exit really showed Carlisle

immensely!

[GSH]

Cardinal is a much better defender than Bonner and has a toughness that Bonner lacks. Bonner shoots threes . . . so, yeah . . . Cardinal > Bonner.

Cardinal comes into games with the expectation that he is going to use up a lot of fouls. He gets paid to lay wood on opponents, and he's pretty good at it. He's no more or less athletic than Bonner.

Bonner used to come into games the same way. And he wasn't bashful about giving a hard foul, and he wasn't bad at it either. When he started getting longer minutes, he also had to start watching his fouls. It requires a totally different approach. If Cardinal had to do that, he would be in a world of hurt. It's a lot harder to keep guys from going around you when you can't just bang the out of them.

Put Cardinal in the same situation as Bonner, and he probably wouldn't be as good on defense. Definitely no better. Cardinal is a niche player - always has been. He wouldn't stand up to being a starter. Not now, not ever.

[cheguevara]

you are thinking way too much into this.

All that is requested from Bonner is go in there and play your ass off. Same thing from Cardinal. Cardinal obviously did. Bonner, not so much. Case closed.

[yavozerb]

you are thinking way too much into this.

All that is requested from Bonner is go in there and play your ass off. Same thing from Cardinal. Cardinal obviously did. Bonner, not so much. Case closed.

Am I missing something? Cardinal averaged 6 minutes per game,1ppg,0.2 rpg(yes, thats 0.2), and almost 2 fouls. Wow, I know you hate Bonner and all, but this is not the guy to prove your point with...

[Ginobilly]

Am I missing something? Cardinal averaged 6 minutes per game,1ppg,0.2 rpg(yes, thats 0.2), and almost 2 fouls. Wow, I know you hate Bonner and all, but this is not the guy to prove your point with...

That's how many minutes Bonner should be playing. Between 6 and 10 per game. Anything more than that only hurts your team in the long run.

[ohmwrecker]

Cardinal comes into games with the expectation that he is going to use up a lot of fouls. He gets paid to lay wood on opponents, and he's pretty good at it. He's no more or less athletic than Bonner.

Bonner used to come into games the same way. And he wasn't bashful about giving a hard foul, and he wasn't bad at it either. When he started getting longer minutes, he also had to start watching his fouls. It requires a totally different approach. If Cardinal had to do that, he would be in a world of hurt. It's a lot harder to keep guys from going around you when you can't just bang the out of them.

Put Cardinal in the same situation as Bonner, and he probably wouldn't be as good on defense. Definitely no better. Cardinal is a niche player - always has been. He wouldn't stand up to being a starter. Not now, not ever.

Well, the obvious counterpoint is that Bonner shouldn't be entrusted with those extra minutes if he can't put a complete two-way game together. It depends on what you want from a rotation big. Personally, I value a guy who isn't afraid to get dirty, knock a few guys down and play defense over a 6'10" jump shooter who has no post game.
My main point was that Cardinal has the qualities that I would like to see in Bonner. Remember, Cardinal can stand around and shoot 3s too, but he can also be a post presence and utility role player.

[yavozerb]

That's how many minutes Bonner should be playing. Between 6 and 10 per game. Anything more than that only hurts your team in the long run.

I dont disagree with you, but that not whats being discussed here...

[GSH]

Am I missing something? Cardinal averaged 6 minutes per game,1ppg,0.2 rpg(yes, thats 0.2), and almost 2 fouls. Wow, I know you hate Bonner and all, but this is not the guy to prove your point with...

Yep. The facts mean nothing. The guy averaged over 9 PF/36 minutes in the playoffs. That's a foul-out every 19 minutes. But somehow that doesn't matter.

This is nothing but another worn-out "Bonner Sucks" thread. The only reason Brian Cardinal got brought into it was to try and make it look like something different than the last 500 "Bonner sucks" threads. And maybe it would have worked with someone other than Brian Cardinal.

[ohmwrecker]

I think you throw stats out the window with an argument like this. What is happening here is that people see Cardinal contributing in a positive way to a championship team. He is doing what is required to help the team win. Playing sharp D, making good rotations, sacrificing his body, etc . . . Sure, Bonner may be the superior offensive player, but if you take away those 3 pointers (which is what happened in the playoffs) what are you left with? What good is the only advantage Bonner has if it's taken away?

[GSH]

Well, the obvious counterpoint is that Bonner shouldn't be entrusted with those extra minutes if he can't put a complete two-way game together. It depends on what you want from a rotation big. Personally, I value a guy who isn't afraid to get dirty, knock a few guys down and play defense over a 6'10" jump shooter who has no post game.
My main point was that Cardinal has the qualities that I would like to see in Bonner. Remember, Cardinal can stand around and shoot 3s too, but he can also be a post presence and utility role player.

Both of us trying to discuss basketball in the middle of just another troll-Matt-Bonner thread.

The only real difference between what you and I are saying is that I think Bonner isn't that much different from Cardinal, when he's playing short minutes off the bench. I've said for a long time that he isn't suited for long minutes OR for being a starter. Cardinal is more of a banger than a defender. Bonner can play that role fairly well when he doesn't have to pace himself. Cardinal really isn't a great defender, which is why he draws so many whistles.

Bonner isn't soft. He's just not athletic enough to defend first-string players without fouling. (Neither is Cardinal.) When he has to pace his fouls, he gets victimized. He could be worthwhile off the bench, just like Cardinal. I've always said Bonner wasn't suited for a starter role, but it's not his fault that he's starting. Just like it wasn't Cardinal's fault that he got handed that ridiculous big contract in Memphis. If Bonner was making half as much, and coming off the bench, he would be a great player to have. He would still be the same player, but he'd catch a lot less grief.

I think you throw stats out the window with an argument like this. What is happening here is that people see Cardinal contributing in a positive way to a championship team. He is doing what is required to help the team win. Playing sharp D, making good rotations, sacrificing his body, etc . . . Sure, Bonner may be the superior offensive player, but if you take away those 3 pointers (which is what happened in the playoffs) what are you left with? What good is the only advantage Bonner has if it's taken away?

I didn't see this while I was typing. The difference is, if you gave Cardinal the same minutes as Bonner is playing, he'd foul out of about half of his games. What good is the only advantage Cardinal has if he's fouling out of games, and keeping the other team in the penalty?

[Blake]

you are thinking way too much into this.

All that is requested from Bonner is go in there and play your ass off. Same thing from Cardinal. Cardinal obviously did. Bonner, not so much. Case closed.

nah, let's think even more about this and get right down to it.

If the Spurs and Mavs swapped Bonner for Ian and Cardinal, and Carlisle for Pop, do the Spurs win the le?

[yavozerb]

So you guys are comparing Bonner, who had to play against memphis and all the monsters they have at pf and center against cardinal who played against Haslem,anthony, and howard...seriously

[Ginobilly]

nah, let's think even more about this and get right down to it.

If the Spurs and Mavs swapped Bonner for Ian and Cardinal, and Carlisle for Pop, do the Spurs win the le?

Is this with an injured or healthy Manu?

I don't know about winning the le, but I think they get past Memphis. Mavs wont win the le with Bonner and Pop running the show. Bonner and Dirk would of lost game 6! ( chandler would of been in foul trouble all game long) Haslem and Ostrich would of had a field day with Dirk and Bonner guarding the rim. Miami would of taken this in 7 imo Probably Neither Team would of won the championship if they swapped. Swap Chandler for Dice and I think all of us would of woken up from a bad hangover from yesterdays championship.

[ohmwrecker]

I've been saying for a while now that Bonner needs a little more "banger" in his game. He is too comfortable behind the arc. That's where his game and his head is. It is hard for him to switch modes when his shots aren't falling. He doesn't contribute in other ways when the main part of his game fails him.
If the Spurs decide to keep Bonner (or are unable to move him) it would be a good idea to get Danny Ferry to mentor him and bring a little muscle to his game. I want to see Bonner box out with his body and deliver some hard fouls. Then if his shot isn't falling, he isn't completely worthless.

[Blake]

Mavs wont win the le with Bonner and Pop running the show. Bonner and Dirk would of lost game 6! ( chandler would of been in foul trouble all game long)

What exactly would Bonner do as a Mav to lose game 6?

Haslem and Ostrich would of had a field day with Dirk and Bonner guarding the rim

The Heat actually did have a field day when Mahinmi tried to guard the rim.

I don't see much difference there.

[Ginobilly]

What exactly would Bonner do as a Mav to lose game 6?

uh...play in it doofus Just his presence alone would of motivated Lebron, Wade and Bosh to drive towards the rim. Remember that Haywood was injured(and like many predicted Tyson to be in foul trouble), so Dallas wouldn't have any other choice other than put the season and championship on the line into the hands of the ginger and dirk guarding the rim.

The Heat actually did have a field day when Mahinmi tried to guard the rim.

I don't see much difference there.

Mahinimi at least gave an effort(tried to contest shots) and knocked some fools down when they tried to drive towards him. He scored a bucket, grabbed a few boards, and his points contributed to a mavs victory in game 6. Can't say that Bonner would of had the same impact.

[Blake]

Mahinimi at least gave an effort(tried to contest shots) and knocked some fools down when they tried to drive towards him. He scored a bucket, grabbed a few boards, and his points contributed to a mavs victory in game 6. Can't say that Bonner would of had the same impact.

Unless you are stupid, you can't say that anyone that played 11 minutes and gave up 5 fouls had a real positive impact on the game.

You also can't smartly say that someone that played limited minutes and only in 3 out of 6 games had any kind of real impact on the series.

[GSH]

I've been saying for a while now that Bonner needs a little more "banger" in his game. He is too comfortable behind the arc. That's where his game and his head is. It is hard for him to switch modes when his shots aren't falling. He doesn't contribute in other ways when the main part of his game fails him.
If the Spurs decide to keep Bonner (or are unable to move him) it would be a good idea to get Danny Ferry to mentor him and bring a little muscle to his game. I want to see Bonner box out with his body and deliver some hard fouls. Then if his shot isn't falling, he isn't completely worthless.

Can't disagree with a single word of that.

When Bonner first came here, he would deliver some harder fouls. And he would come into a game and pick up an offensive board or two, maybe a steal, knock down a 3. And almost always pick up a foul or two - sometimes within seconds. I remember some of them being some pretty stiff shots - and some guys on opposing teams losing their cool at him, which is pretty much what you want from a banger. Maybe he wasn't as rough as Cardinal, but he was far from soft.

He doesn't play the same game anymore. I think it's because of the role, and the minutes he has to play. Maybe he really is mentally out on the arc. Either way, I think Ferry is the perfect role model for what Bonner should be doing when he's not shooting 3's.

But don't forget that Ferry spent most of his career coming off the bench. As a starter, playing longer minutes and pacing his fouls, he got beaten on defense a lot, too. In that '01 WCF, he looked a lot like Bonner playing defense. A lot. I know he was a few years older, but the basics are the same. He was a lot more suited for coming off the bench, just like Bonner. And I think Bonner could/would bang more if he was back in that role.

[Ginobilly]

Unless you are stupid, you can't say that anyone that played 11 minutes and gave up 5 fouls had a real positive impact on the game.

You also can't smartly say that someone that played limited minutes and only in 3 out of 6 games had any kind of real impact on the series.

His team did win no? Or is game 7 scheduled for tomorrow?

Did you even see the game Blake, seriously? Those hard fouls that Mahininmi, and the custodian delivered really ed with the Heats offensive rhythm as they tried to make a comeback as the 3rd q ended. And they paid off didn't they? How many free throws did the Heat missed? This is almost like when Sacramento choked on the line during game 7 of the 2002 wcsf when the Lakers delivered some hard fouls on the kings players that messed with their confidence.

[ElNono]

If Matty would be playing 6 mpg, I don't think there will be much to complain about with him. I would still call him a soft choker, but I would be glad he only gets 6 mpg. Somewhat what happened with RMJ when he fell out of Pop's favor. Nobody really missed him, most were glad when his ass was shipped.

Now, that Matt used to foul a lot before he was assigned this 'extended' role (which allegedly is Cardinal's job) is a bunch of baloney. A cursory look at his career numbers will tell you that he never even reached an average of 3 fouls per game in a season, 2 being his career average. Truth be told, his rotations are so awful he's normally late even to foul. From just looking at the games my perception (could be wrong) is that most of his fouls actually come from opposing players jumping on him to draw a foul, more than Matt actually proactively committing one.

Matt is a great guy, just a very below average NBA player overall. A role like Cardinal has in Dallas is probably the right role for him (5th big, under 10 mpg when somebody else is injured). Unfortunately, our top dog can't play a lot of minutes anymore, and Dice has been on his last legs. Which IMO ties with FWD observation in another thread about this roster being deeply flawed when talking about contention.

[ChumpDumper]

Sure Bonner is overused.

[ElNono]

Danny Ferry had a nasty side to him. That's something Matt simply doesn't have, and you can't teach. It's part of your personality. You either have it or you don't.

[ElNono]

And I'm not 'bashing' Matty for being a nice guy. I'm just pointing it out. Some nice guys like Dirk make positive contributions too using sheer talent.

[TJastal]

So you guys are comparing Bonner, who had to play against memphis and all the monsters they have at pf and center against cardinal who played against Haslem,anthony, and howard...seriously

Randolph & Gasol were tough matchups for Bonner. But he also got dominated by 6'8" Darrel Arthur.

With that in mind, what makes you think it would have been any different with Haslem/Anthony/Howard? Not to mention he would have been matched up against Lebron for stretches of every game every time the heat went small.

I think its just the intensity and physicality of playoff basketball that Bonner can't handle, and he's proved it every year so far. Last year it was Dudley, Amundson, & Frye that pulled down Bonner's panties and spanked him all over the court.

[TJastal]

As usual, you have to talk about you know nothing about. Hate Bonner all you want - everybody is en led to an opinion. But his stroke is extremely good, and the rotation on the shots (especially those 3's) is incredible. Of all the things you could say about him, talking about his shooting mechanics and calling them "shot-puts" is probably the stupidest thing I could think of.

If you knew about the actual game, you might have noticed that late in the season he couldn't hit a 3 unless he was stepping into it. (And had one foot in front of the other.) If he was standing still and had both feet planted evenly, he couldn't knock one down to save his life. Guys develop quirks like that sometimes when they are trying to compensate from an injury. Gee... did Bonner have an injury that might make it necessary to step into long shots? Something like a knee, maybe? Ya think?

about him not stepping up in the playoffs. about him looking clumsy. about him not being able to defend Zach Randolph. But don't talk about ing shooting mechanics if you don't know anything about shooting mechanics. And don't bother me with one of your three page, mind-numbing responses. You're just wrong about this one. Let it go.

What do I care whether Matt Bonner stepped into his 3's or not late in the year? It's not even relevant to the argument. His motion, mechanics and release are all flawed, which is evident from this video.



Pause at :17 and you can see how he releases the ball from his right shoulder shot-put style. It's like a cross between a jumpshot and setshot and since he shoots it from the shoulder instead of above his head it's easy to disrupt. Add the pressure of playoff basketball and these poor mechanics just exacerbate the problem which is why his 3pt% tumbles every year. He didn't get the nickname "snowman" for nothing.