Dirk is the best power forward to ever play the game

Originally Posted by Agloco

Who has Dirk or KG faced that even remotely compares? Yes Finals MVP weighs heavily, but you can't leave out the context.

You mean to tell me that Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant, Shaq, Lebron, and Wade (5 different players who have a good chance to go down as being widely considered top 10 of all time) does not outweigh Jordan aaaaaaand... Jordan? Please, no one else aside from MJ in the 90s is even remotely considered as a top 10 player ever. I guess maybe Shaq, but the level of dominance he had during his le run was superior to his play during the MJ era. Maybe Hakeem, although again, Barkley and Malone both had their shots at the le over Hakeem, and at that time, Hakeem was not neccesarily in his prime any longer.

While I do agree Dirk is #2 behind Timmy as best PF ever, I think the OPs summary of why had some holes in his points as well. But to say that Dirk and KG never had to go though the compe ion that Barkley/Malone went through in the 90s is horse .

Truth is, the 90's was a pretty weak era, top to bottom. The 80s and 2000s both have had far more talent and compe ion, top to bottom. Your argument is garbage saying that if Malone and Barkley didnt have to deal with MJ, they would have multiple les. The same could be true for Dirk and KG if they didnt have to deal with a load of potential top-10 or 15 players, as opposed to ONE that Malone and Barkley dealt with. Take away the players I listed early, and every le this decade is won by Dirk/KG most likely. So you see how ridiculous of an argument that is?

Originally Posted by pass1st

He had to contend with the Rockets and Bulls which would 4-0 any team in the league right now, so him not ringing in his prime is understandable.

this is a ing dumbass statement

i loved MJs bulls, but they had their share of struggles in various playoff series as well, along with playing in a rather weak league. they werent as invincable as people make them out to be. 4-0ing every team in the league right now? i guess the Pacers in 98 would 4-1 every team in the league right now, considering they were very close to beating the Bulls.

re ed

invincable?

Originally Posted by stretch

this is a ing dumbass statement

i loved MJs bulls, but they had their share of struggles in various playoff series as well, along with playing in a rather weak league. they werent as invincable as people make them out to be. 4-0ing every team in the league right now? i guess the Pacers in 98 would 4-1 every team in the league right now, considering they were very close to beating the Bulls.

re ed

They might 4-0 everyone simply because Jordan would be averaging 20 FTs a game with the new rules on the perimeter not to mention centers can't just camp under the lane anymore.

Also it depends on if we're talking 91-93 Bulls or 96-98 because those are vastly different teams except for Phil, Jordan, and Pippen. The second threepeat team had a slightly older Jordan but they also had Rodman who would be a defensive nightmare for a lot of guys in the league today, not to mention Pip.

I'd like to see the 96 Bulls play the 2011 Heat because I am interested to see Wade and Jordan guard each other while LeBron and Pippen guard each other.

Originally Posted by Leetonidas

They might 4-0 everyone simply because Jordan would be averaging 20 FTs a game with the new rules on the perimeter not to mention centers can't just camp under the lane anymore.

Doubt it.

They took away handchecking, added zone defense, which presents its own share of trouble for scorers, as evidenced by Kobe, Durant, and Lebron's failures against the Mavs.

If I personally could choose between one or the other, I would take zone all day long. A well ran zone defense is a great team concept that can completely disrupt the flow of an opposing offense if used in the right way.

Handchecking is just a one-on-one trick, that allows defenders to get away with a little extra fouling out on the perimeter, although considering the incredible level of athleticism these days, handchecking isnt as neccesary to keep up with elite guys like Bron or Wade (or in the case of the 90s, MJ).

I would rather my whole team put their heads together and use smart rotations, good communication, and timely court placement to put forth a complete defensive effort.



On a side note, if handchecking was such a great defensive tool, that if a team wasnt allowed to do it to the Bulls, they would be swept in a series, consider the fact that what made the Bulls so much tougher was their physical, strong defense. Them not being allowed to handcheck would likewise cause their defense to drop considerably. So it works both ways.

Originally Posted by Tyson_Chandler

yeah handchecking didnt make it any harder to score crofl

bro you ever played basketball and had some annoying slow ass try to hand check you because he couldn't keep up? makes it hard to ing drive tbh

I didnt say it doesnt make it any harder, but in a league with a storm of supreme athletes, I don't think handchecking makes as massive of a difference as people think.

Plus, it's not going to affect you nearly as much if you have a post game, much like MJ had. My point is, I don't think handchecking or no handchecking would make too much of a difference in MJs case. And this isnt even including the fact that MJ still was given calls for handchecking anyways, so it doesnt matter.

Originally Posted by Tyson_Chandler

Pretty sure magic played till 92' bro, besides Shaq and Hakeem I mean. There are also a ton in that top 25 range like barkley, malone, stockton, thomas, robinson, etc. don't be stupid brah.

Are you re ed?

Magic retired after getting ass ed by MJ in the Finals. Barkley and Malone are the two players in question, so they arent included in the list obviously, and Stockton played with Malone, so that scratches another one off. Thomas was heavily in decline in the 90s. Robinson is the only player on your list that actually makes a remote bit of sense.

Originally Posted by stretch

Are you re ed?

Magic retired after getting ass ed by MJ in the Finals. Barkley and Malone are the two players in question, so they arent included in the list obviously, and Stockton played with Malone, so that scratches another one off. Thomas was heavily in decline in the 90s. Robinson is the only player on your list that actually makes a remote bit of sense.

Why do you say this after seeing a list with Hakeem on it?

Originally Posted by Tyson_Chandler

By my count at least 4 top 10 all time players played at least part of their careers in the 90's imho.

Thats stupid. Thats like saying one of the 5 greatest PGs of all time in Jason Kidd played in the 2010-2020 era, raising its level of PG play simply because he played a portion of it, when in fact he is clearly not remotely close to playing at a level of a top 5 ever PG.



Maybe you should have read what was in question in the first place, and that is the legitimacy of the claim that the only reason Barkley/Malone didnt win les was because of MJ's run of les.

I don't think Magic Johnson playing in the 90-91 season had much effect on that, considering neither Barkley nor Malone's teams were legit contenders at that time.

Dirk and KG both have had to deal with some DAMN good players in the league, facing guys like Lebron, Wade, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, and other damn good players. Whether the 2000s or 90s era is better is not what I'm trying to debate, although I feel the 2000's have a stronger era, top to bottom. But what I am trying to debate is the ignorant statement that the 90s is infinitely better simply because of MJ, and that means that Barkley/Malone had to face tougher obstacles than Dirk/KG. Bull .

Originally Posted by dirk4mvp

Why do you say this after seeing a list with Hakeem on it?

Robinson has a legit claim as a possible top 25 player ever, IMO.

Originally Posted by Tyson_Chandler

lol wade and kobe top 10 all time. kobe is debatable brah, and putting 2003-2009 lebron in the top 10 all time is more of a stretch than putting 96-99 shaq in the top 10

debate is over at this point.

i know there are a lot of kobe haters out here, but the man deserves some respect. dude is a damn good ball player, and should easily be viewed as top 5 of all time, and probably would if it wasnt for MJ. but because everyone is so quick to compare him to MJ, suddenly hes not a top 10 player of all time? but somehow, Magic Johnson is, despite playing with (and for some of his career, behind) Kareem, who is the 2nd greatest player ever?

and im not sure where you came up with the years 2003-2009 for Lebron, considering we are in 2011.

stretch i have a question for you

Originally Posted by stretch

debate is over at this point.

i know there are a lot of kobe haters out here, but the man deserves some respect. dude is a damn good ball player, and should easily be viewed as top 5 of all time, and probably would if it wasnt for MJ. but because everyone is so quick to compare him to MJ, suddenly hes not a top 10 player of all time? but somehow, Magic Johnson is, despite playing with (and for some of his career, behind) Kareem, who is the 2nd greatest player ever?

Does not compute. You are saying, if not for the other top 5 players, Kobe would be a top 5 player?

Ok. ?

Kobe isn't a top 5 player because of Kobe. Not because of MJ. MJ doesn't call him and say "Kobe, hog the ball and chuck it at the rim from half court when other guys are wide open when you are down 2 at the end of the game".

The PFs in the 90s were Barkley, Malone, Webber, Kemp, Larry Johnson, Rodman, Horace Grant, Derrick Coleman, Gugs, Laettner, Anthony Mason, Dale Davis, Antonio Davis, Elden Campbell, young KG, young Joe Smith, young Brian Grant, young Rasheed Wallace, Kevin Willis just from recollection. A number of these guys made All-stars at least once.

In the Dirk and Duncan era was:

Dirk, Duncan, Webber, Garnett, Joe Smith, Rasheed Wallace, Jermaine O'Neal, Boozer, Gasol, Amare, Zack Randolph, David West, Josh Smith, Kenyon Martin, Rashard Lewis, Scola, Al Jefferson.

Originally Posted by Leetonidas

I'd like to see the 96 Bulls play the 2011 Heat because I am interested to see Wade and Jordan guard each other while LeBron and Pippen guard each other.

Wade wouldn't have a chance at guarding MJ. Wade isn't the best 1 on 1 defender and MJ has 4 inches on Wade.

Pippen would be the best defender Lebron has ever had to go against.

Originally Posted by pass1st

Dirk has a strong argument for #2 or #3. Barkley was an abnormally dominant PF that was the same height as an SG. He had to contend with the Rockets and Bulls which would 4-0 any team in the league right now, so him not ringing in his prime is understandable.

lol

The Bulls played TONS of long series during their championship run, and even lost one in the 90s with MJ... in the weakest top-tier level of basketball in the modern basketball era. What makes you think they could SWEEP any team, let alone the best teams.

dirk is a shooting guard.

Originally Posted by stretch

Robinson has a legit claim as a possible top 25 player ever, IMO.

Neat. Hakeem has a legit claim as somewhere in the top 8 players ever, TBH.

Originally Posted by stretch

Robinson has a legit claim as a possible top 25 player ever, IMO.

Son, you're being stupid. What you're doing right now is throwing the ball straight into triple coverage with no recievers around. You wanna FORCE it into quadruple coverage, makes the completion more awesome.

every time i see this thread I laugh my ass off. Best misleading thread le in a while.

Originally Posted by joetait75

tim duncan is a center.

+ 1

Originally Posted by DMC

Does not compute. You are saying, if not for the other top 5 players, Kobe would be a top 5 player?

Ok. ?

Kobe isn't a top 5 player because of Kobe. Not because of MJ. MJ doesn't call him and say "Kobe, hog the ball and chuck it at the rim from half court when other guys are wide open when you are down 2 at the end of the game".

You didnt bother to read the next portion of my post, but it doesnt matter, because you are a complete ing dumbass.

Dude has won 5 rings, obviously hes doing something right. Sure, hes a bit overrated as a clutch player, but anyone who says they arent scared anytime Kobe launches a shot in the clutch is a ing liar.

Originally Posted by Hornets78

The PFs in the 90s were Barkley, Malone, Webber, Kemp, Larry Johnson, Rodman, Horace Grant, Derrick Coleman, Gugs, Laettner, Anthony Mason, Dale Davis, Antonio Davis, Elden Campbell, young KG, young Joe Smith, young Brian Grant, young Rasheed Wallace, Kevin Willis just from recollection. A number of these guys made All-stars at least once.

In the Dirk and Duncan era was:

Dirk, Duncan, Webber, Garnett, Joe Smith, Rasheed Wallace, Jermaine O'Neal, Boozer, Gasol, Amare, Zack Randolph, David West, Josh Smith, Kenyon Martin, Rashard Lewis, Scola, Al Jefferson.

LMAO, Lattener, Dale Davis, Anthony Mason, Antonio Davis, Brian grant, Joe Smith? What kind of list is this? You act as if these guys are ing gamechangers or something. Making one all-star game doesnt mean . Especially considering your second list is leaving plenty of players out who made one all-star game. Quit pulling stupid out of your ass.

Originally Posted by Amaso

Wade wouldn't have a chance at guarding MJ. Wade isn't the best 1 on 1 defender and MJ has 4 inches on Wade.

MJ was 6'8 or taller?