Dirk is the best power forward to ever play the game

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Neat. Hakeem has a legit claim as somewhere in the top 8 players ever, TBH.

Neat. This does absolutely nothing to support the ridiculous claim that Dirk/KG played no compe ion, while Malone/Barkley playing MJ means they played absolutely nothing but nonstop, unbeatable compe ion, even if the only time they would face him was in the finals, not the series leading up to the finals.

[dirk4mvp]

That had more do to with your "MJ is the only guy who's close to being a top 10 player of all time in the 90s" comment, which clearly isn't the case.

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That had more do to with your "MJ is the only guy who's close to being a top 10 player of all time in the 90s" comment, which clearly isn't the case.

I actually never said that. In fact, I stated Hakeem as being one from the get go who could be considered. Some people think he is, others think he has no business being in that list.

My apologies for offending you and your boner for Hakeem.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

LMAO, Lattener, Dale Davis, Anthony Mason, Antonio Davis, Brian grant, Joe Smith? What kind of list is this? You act as if these guys are ing gamechangers or something. Making one all-star game doesnt mean . Especially considering your second list is leaving plenty of players out who made one all-star game. Quit pulling stupid out of your ass.

I think his point was that Barkley and Malone has much less talent to compete with than Dirk and KG.

[Agloco]

While I do agree Dirk is #2 behind Timmy as best PF ever, I think the OPs summary of why had some holes in his points as well. But to say that Dirk and KG never had to go though the compe ion that Barkley/Malone went through in the 90s is horse .

Listing other players from any era is superfluous. The only one that matters is the one I used as a metric and that's the GOAT. If Dirk or KG faced the GOAT in the finals today, they'd be ringless just like Barkley and Malone. Where on the list do you put them without their rings?

Take away the players I listed early, and every le this decade is won by Dirk/KG most likely. So you see how ridiculous of an argument that is?

Yes, I see how ridiculous it is since that would make either KG or Dirk the best player of this era, a condition not met by Malone or Barkley when we discuss their runs. You'd have to throw in Kobe, Shaq or Duncan to parallel the point I made, and even then it doesn't work since none of them is actually the GOAT.

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I think his point was that Barkley and Malone has much less talent to compete with than Dirk and KG.

I hope that was the case.

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Listing other players from any era is superfluous. The only one that matters is the one I used as a metric and that's the GOAT. If Dirk or KG faced the GOAT in the finals today, they'd be ringless just like Barkley and Malone. Where on the list do you put them without their rings?



Yes, I see how ridiculous it is since that would make either KG or Dirk the best player of this era, a condition not met by Malone or Barkley when we discuss their runs. You'd have to throw in Kobe, Shaq or Duncan to parallel the point I made, and even then it doesn't work since none of them is actually the GOAT.

coulda woulda shoulda blah blah blah bull

Point is, all that speculation means nothing. What matters is what you actually did. Dirk has led his team to a championship. KG changed the makeup of a team to help them to a championship. Malone and Barkley did neither. Did they get close? Most certainly, and both of them are notable for having had issues showing up when their team needed them most. Many people feel that had they played with a pair, they would have had a legit chance to take away a le or two from MJ and the Bulls. They had their shots, and didn't make the best of it.

[Pelicans78]

Truth be told, Barkley and Malone had a chance to beat the Rockets, especially Phoenix. They weren't that far off and the 1995 Suns team could have easily won that series. They had chances to win a championship and didn't get it done. I still might take a Barkley/Malone in their prime over KG because they could dominant games with their scoring and score against tough defenses while KG was similar to Lebron where he's versatile, did everything well, especially defensively, but not have the type of offensive game to dominate late. That's what separated Dirk from KG and why KG needed Pierce to win that series while KG was the overall anchor.

[DAF86]

lol Mavsfans resorting to the championship argument now that their team has ringed. Let's say Terry, Barea, Stevenson and co. wouldn't have stepped up at the precise moment, would have that made Dirk a lesser player?

[Agloco]

coulda woulda shoulda blah blah blah bull

Point is, all that speculation means nothing.

Says the man who clearly has all of his horses in this speculative thread. I'll take this as an admission that you have no valid rebuttal to my argument.

Dirk has led his team to a championship. KG changed the makeup of a team to help them to a championship. Malone and Barkley did neither.

So Dirk > Barkley or Malone on that basis alone? You can make a strong argument against Barkley, but Malone? lol.

Where is Garnett in this wonderful world of yours?

Most certainly, and both of them are notable for having had issues showing up when their team needed them most. Many people feel that had they played with a pair, they would have had a legit chance to take away a le or two from MJ and the Bulls. They had their shots, and didn't make the best of it.

I see no evidence that Barkley or Malone had significantly sub-par series against the Bulls. Was the scoring off a bit? Sure, but that doesn't make them chokers a la Dirk. Neither one of them have that on their resumes.

It's gonna take more than one champagne shower to wash all the that Dirks ac ulated off. If he wins another before it's over, I'll gladly revisit this.

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lol Mavsfans resorting to the championship argument now that their team has ringed. Let's say Terry, Barea, Stevenson and co. wouldn't have stepped up at the precise moment, would have that made Dirk a lesser player?

Don't be stupid. The same could be said for various Spurs players like S-Jax, Bowen, and others. But we all know the truth is, Ginobili and Duncan were great about stepping up big for their team, and helping to make things easier for their teammates, much like Dirk did for the Mavs, in particular the players you mentioned.

It's not so much the "won a championship" argument, as opposed to the manner in which Dirk did so. Dirk stepped up and took advantage of an opportunity to win a championship, while Barkley and Malone both had their shots and their nuts shriveled. Dirk had some truly amazing and memorable performances in the playoffs, the Finals in particular, leading a furious comeback when down 15 with less than 7 minutes to go, hitting two game winners including one when he was sick and clearly not at his best all game, and completely owned the 4th quarters by constantly scoring double digits even on off nights. He had one of the 5 greatest 4th quarter scoring averages in Finals history (I wanna say 2nd or 3rd highest) which is pretty amazing considering all the great players/scorers in NBA history.

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So Dirk > Barkley or Malone on that basis alone? You can make a strong argument against Barkley, but Malone? lol.

What exactly did Malone do that was so amazing? Forget the importance of protecting the ball in clutch situations to give away a stupid steal to the best player in NBA history?

IMO, Stockton was the true leader of those Jazz teams, not Malone.

Where is Garnett in this wonderful world of yours?

IMO, my list goes as such:

1. Duncan
2. Dirk
3. Barkley
4/5. Malone/KG

I have Malone and KG lower because I think both of them are questionable performers down the stretch. I don't think they could take over a game in the clutch and put a team on their back the way Duncan, Dirk, or Chuck all could.

I see no evidence that Barkley or Malone had significantly sub-par series against the Bulls. Was the scoring off a bit? Sure, but that doesn't make them chokers a la Dirk. Neither one of them have that on their resumes.

Yes, Dirk is such a massive choker that he completely dominated the out of the two best players in the NBA, singlehandedly in 4th quarters and crunchtime.

Dude had one truly bad playoff run (Golden State series) in his career. His run in 2005 wasnt his best in terms of scoring, but he did do a very good job of stepping up in other ways such as rebounding, and drawing defensive attention to make things easier for teammates like Terry and Howard. But pretty much every great player has had a bad playoff run or two. Even your beloved Timmy has had a subpar playoff run. Truth is, like Duncan and all other great players, Dirk has had far more good runs than bad runs.

It's gonna take more than one champagne shower to wash all the that Dirks ac ulated off. If he wins another before it's over, I'll gladly revisit this.

Now you just look like you're crying like a . You look like the stupidass Kobe haters now, where basically unless he wins 10 rings, he blows ass. Give credit where credit is due.

[DAF86]

Don't be stupid. The same could be said for various Spurs players like S-Jax, Bowen, and others. But we all know the truth is, Ginobili and Duncan were great about stepping up big for their team, and helping to make things easier for their teammates, much like Dirk did for the Mavs, in particular the players you mentioned.

It's not so much the "won a championship" argument, as opposed to the manner in which Dirk did so. Dirk stepped up and took advantage of an opportunity to win a championship, while Barkley and Malone both had their shots and their nuts shriveled. Dirk had some truly amazing and memorable performances in the playoffs, the Finals in particular, leading a furious comeback when down 15 with less than 7 minutes to go, hitting two game winners including one when he was sick and clearly not at his best all game, and completely owned the 4th quarters by constantly scoring double digits even on off nights. He had one of the 5 greatest 4th quarter scoring averages in Finals history (I wanna say 2nd or 3rd highest) which is pretty amazing considering all the great players/scorers in NBA history.

Dirk was a monster all season long and during the playoffs, but in the finals he shot 41%. He would have gotten murdered if the Mavs wouldn't have won it. IMO Dirk didn't change as a player because of winning this championship.

[ZB 512]

nevermind

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Dirk was a monster all season long and during the playoffs, but in the finals he shot 41%. He would have gotten murdered if the Mavs wouldn't have won it. IMO Dirk didn't change as a player because of winning this championship.

I dont think he changed as an individual player by any means, but his place in historical greatness most definitely did.

He may have not had his best overall shooting series in the finals, but when it counted most, he was always hitting his shots. His ridiculous "choker" label was most definitely debunked by his Finals performance.

[Sean Cagney]

nope, Kareem/Chamberlain/Dream/Shaq all be better centers then Tim imo and the massive fans will ram E in there as well, TD ain't a top 5 neither as a PF nor C imho

Ur a dumbass........... Thats all.

[Agloco]

Now you just look like you're crying like a . You look like the stupidass Kobe haters now, where basically unless he wins 10 rings, he blows ass. Give credit where credit is due.

I'm giving Dirk all the credit he deserves. 3rd all time.

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whoever thinks this should check into the viability of suicide immediately.

I most definitely agree. Hakeem IMO is tied with Shaq for 2nd/3rd best center ever, behind only Kareem.

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I'm giving Dirk all the credit he deserves. 3rd all time.

Behind Barkley or Malone?

Barkley - understandable.

Malone - go yourself for being a dumbass.

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Talent level between 90's and 2000's is pretty even imho, all great players in the modern era have gone up against other great players, looking at the compe ion and trying to make comparisons isn't exactly a reliable way to determine your top PF list. how would you know which players are better whenever you've only seen them go up against eachother in totally opposite stages of their careers? no way to know if the average talent level of the league back then is higher or lower than today because you can't bring back the 95 versions of every team and create a 59 league team seeing who wins.

I wont argue with this at all. I personally think the overall talent in the 2000's is higher, but its not really that big of a deal, nor is it easy to prove, and isn't really relevant to my issue in this thread.

My issue was with the moron basically saying that having to play against Jordan means Malone/Barkley had to face nothing but tough opposition, while Dirk and KG didnt have any opposition at all because they didnt face Jordan. Ignorant and dumb.

[Agloco]

What exactly did Malone do that was so amazing? Forget the importance of protecting the ball in clutch situations to give away a stupid steal to the best player in NBA history?

IMO, Stockton was the true leader of those Jazz teams, not Malone.

Blue - http://www.basketball-reference.com/...malonka01.html

Red - The GOAT stole the ball.......these things happen when you play the GOAT.

Thanks for making my point though. Dirk has faced that sort of opponent/adversity when exactly? Baron Davis? Captain Jack? LeBron? D-Whistle?

Of course you think Stockton was the leader of those Jazz teams, it helps your argument.

[Agloco]

Behind Barkley or Malone?

Barkley - understandable.

Malone - go yourself for being a dumbass.

Seriously?

Come to think of it, I'd put him behind both. Make that 4th all time.

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Red - The GOAT stole the ball.......these things happen when you play the GOAT.

Sure MJ stole it, but the point is, he shouldn't have been able to. Malone was a dumbass for exposing the ball like he did, and not waiting for the cutter to finish making his cut across the baseline, taking MJ with him. He started his dribble way too soon, and MJ made him pay for such a dumbass choice.

Thanks for making my point though. Dirk has faced that sort of opponent/adversity when exactly? Baron Davis? Captain Jack? LeBron? D-Whistle?

I guess your lovely Tim Duncan doesnt rank as a great player in your own book. You truly are a moron.

Seriously?

Come to think of it, I'd put him behind both. Make that 4th all time.

Good for you. Unfortunately, your opinion is , so it means nothing. Sorry.

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There's a better case for putting dirk above big ty than there is for putting dirk 4th.

Lmfao loco

its hilarious that loco is so stupid that he just bascially said Tim Duncan and Kobe are not great players, just to suit his argument. what a ing idiot.

[jjktkk]

Good arguement. Barkley, Dirk, and Malone are all obviously great pfs. The only thing that seperates the 3, is Dirk winning a ring, which imo, gives Dirk the edge over Barkley and Malone.