The reality in Libya.

[ChumpDumper]

I said that Gaddafi never attacked his people by air. That was one claim as to why the UN started this. Our interference took out Gaddafi's ability to suppress rebel action, and now there is a full scale civil war. How many will die before this is over.

I may have thought you actually cared about this kind of thing had you expressed any sort of similar reservation about Iraq.

You never did.

I'm saying the basis that the UN is going on is a lie.

Right, you say it's about variations of Islam.

Explain.

[Wild Cobra]

Translation:

"I am unwilling to admit I was talking out my ass. Can we please change the subject?"

Jeez, man, do you want me to show the particular religious make ups of the various regions in Libya showing you that they are all sunni?

Do I need to do that?

Making a mistake is one thing, not owning up to it, when it is so obvious is something else entirely.

Believe that if you want. Convenient excuse for you to ignore the other points I make, right?

[ChumpDumper]

Believe that if you want. Convenient excuse for you to ignore the other points I make, right?

You're ignoring your own point.

[RandomGuy]

I said that Gaddafi never attacked his people by air. That was one claim as to why the UN started this. Our interference took out Gaddafi's ability to suppress rebel action, and now there is a full scale civil war. How many will die before this is over.

Actually air forces loyal to Ghaddafi did perform airstrikes to take out armories and weapons caches that might have been seized.

There were not many strikes by his air force, but there were indeed some.

"Gaddafi never attacked his people by air" is inaccurate.

There were apparently some attempts to ouright hit civilian targets, but the pilots tended to dump their bombloads in the desert or out right defect to Malta instead. There may have been one or two that actually carried out their orders to hit the civilians.

[Wild Cobra]

I may have thought you actually cared about this kind of thing had you expressed any sort of similar reservation about Iraq.

You never did.

There were airstrikes by Saddam, constantly. When we imposed a no fly zone, we didn't destroy his ability to launch an airstrike. There were also several resolutions in place that went unenforced for years.

Right, you say it's about variations of Islam.

Explain.

I'm not going to bother on that one. There are too few subjective examples and I know you will continue to do as you are now. You never let go. This will be comical to see you ask the same questions over and over.

There are more important reasons we shouldn't be there. I have pointed them out, yet no one can attack my stronger arguments. I understand that you know you can't win against the stronger ones. That's why you pick a weak one I used.

[RandomGuy]

Except that the reservoir is for a specific purpose, and a fixed amount based on what has aleady taken from the ground. ANWAR could easily be far more oil than we know, but we won't know how big it really is until we drill.

Sure they know. They keep testing and finding less oil.

In 2010, the USGS revised an estimate of the oil in the National Petroleum Reserve–Alaska (NPRA), concluding that it contained approximately "896 million barrels of conventional, undiscovered oil".[27] The NPRA is west of ANWR. The reason for the decrease is because of new exploratory drilling, which showed that many areas that were believed to hold oil actually hold natural gas.

Not enough to make a fart's worth of difference in the long run.

I'm not against drilling there per se. I think it is silly, and rather obvious that the people who stand to make the most money are the ones screaming the loudest about it. They are rather cynically manipulating the anti-environmentalist streak in conservative politics.

[ChumpDumper]

There were airstrikes by Saddam, constantly. When we imposed a no fly zone, we didn't destroy his ability to launch an airstrike. There were also several resolutions in place that went unenforced for years.

Yet, you didn't care one bit about the civilian deaths and displacements.

Not one bit.

You're a hypocrite, plain and simple.

I'm not going to bother on that one. There are too few subjective examples and I know you will continue to do as you are now. You never let go. This will be comical to see you ask the same questions over and over.

It is more comical to watch you squirm and when I do ask.

There are more important reasons we shouldn't be there. I have pointed them out, yet no one can attack my stronger arguments. I understand that you know you can't win against the stronger ones. That's why you pick a weak one I used.

I understand that you just made this one up, and your refusal to admit that undermines any other point you might have.

, I'm not even necessarily for this military action. I just know you have no integrity when arguing about it.

[RandomGuy]

This will be comical to see you ask the same questions over and over.

Yes, yes it will.

The comedy will be watching you fail to answer a basic question about the core reason for the fighting.

[RandomGuy]

Do you know what this civil, war boils down to? I'm all but certain its about religion. You have two variations of Islam against each other.

, I'll even throw you a life line:

Are you trying to say this is a war between extremists and non-extremists?

It isn't even that. It is all tribal and ethnic power politics.

[Wild Cobra]

Yes, yes it will.

The comedy will be watching you fail to answer a basic question about the core reason for the fighting.

Then focus on my better arguments first. Defeat them, and I will have nothing left, right?

[Wild Cobra]

It isn't even that. It is all tribal and ethnic power politics.

Tribal carries heavy in religion.

Now I agree, Gaddafi was a racist. Probably still is.

[ChumpDumper]

Tribal carries heavy in religion.

You mean variations of religion.

Which ones?

[Wild Cobra]

You mean variations of religion.

Which ones?

Where is the proof that Gaddafi did anything he is accused of to warrant us helping the rebels?

I told you. I will not worry about my weaker arguments as long as my better ones go unchallenged. Where is the evidence other than hearsay?

[ChumpDumper]

Where is the proof that Gaddafi did anything he is accused of to warrant us helping the rebels?

I told you. I will not worry about my weaker arguments as long as my better ones go unchallenged. Where is the evidence other than hearsay?

Your evidence to the contrary is also hearsay.

You have no integrity.

[RandomGuy]

You mean variations of religion.

Which ones?

Even when thrown a life line, he won't own up to it...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Libya

Other than the overwhelming majority of Sunni Muslims, there are also small Christian communities, composed exclusively of foreigners.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/ly.html
Religions:
Sunni Muslim 97%, other 3%

Not much variation there that I can determine.

[RandomGuy]

Believe that if you want. Convenient excuse for you to ignore the other points I make, right?

Yes, I want to believe you were talking out your ass, mostly because it seems you are.

"its about variations in religion" --97% the same version of islam

"gaddafi never used air strikes agaisnt his people" --yes he did

What were your "stronger points" again?

If they are predicated on similar factually incorrect assumptions as your "weaker" points, then maybe they aren't as strong as you think they are.

[ElNono]

[RandomGuy]

Where is the proof that Gaddafi did anything he is accused of to warrant us helping the rebels?

I told you. I will not worry about my weaker arguments as long as my better ones go unchallenged. Where is the evidence other than hearsay?

Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi appeared on state television to dispel rumors that he had left the country, instead remaining defiant and calling foreign media outlets "dogs" as violence continued in Tripoli, Benghazi and throughout the country. There are estimates that several hundred have been killed in the clashes between protesters and security forces, although foreign journalists have largely had to rely on human rights groups and defectors for information from inside the North African country.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/...-evacuate.html

RAW FOOTAGE - Brave Protester in Libya shot dead by hired Libyan government forces. Feb17 Revolution

http://www.vimeo.com/20128658

Libyan protesters shot in Benghazi demonstrations
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...strations.html

Finally:

someone who thinks the worlds second most kooky dictator is credible when he denies using violence and torture.

Is that what you are trying to say? You think the evidence against him is manufactured?

Or you just haven't been paying attention, and think it must be all made up because the "liberal media" said so?

[RandomGuy]

youtube has more than enough cellphone footage to vouch for a fairly horrific level of violence:
http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...+protests&aq=f

While any one video is easy to dismiss as potentially faked, the colletive number of them, as well as the fact that they corroberate eyewitness accounts, says that there is a pretty good liklihood of some basic underlying truth.

Are the protestors and rebels motivated to exaggerate? Sure. I have no doubt that claims on both sides are exactly that.

Those videos and eyewitness accounts that we have tilt the balance to the side of the protestors, however, by any fair reading.

The *only* way you can claim that Ghaddafi didn't do the things we are bombing him for, is if you really assign credibility to his governments pronouncements.

[Wild Cobra]

I will give you this, which I'll bet i am so far the only one to read here:

International Religious Freedom Report 2007; Lybia

International Religious Freedom Report 2010; Lybia

Pick and choose what you like. Here are a few tidbits from the 2007 report:

There were no reports of societal abuses or discrimination based on religious belief or practice.

Islam is the equivalent of a state religion and thoroughly integrated into everyday political and social life. As with all other aspects of individuals' lives, the Government closely monitors and regulates Islam to ensure religious life includes no political dimension. The Government strongly opposes religious extremism or militant Islam, which it views as a threat to the Qadhafi regime.

While the Government does not single out religious activity for special scrutiny, it actively monitors peaceful religious practice for evidence of political motivations or dimensions. So long as religious groups avoid political activity, they encounter little harassment.

The Government actively enforces a prohibition on efforts to proselytize Muslims.

There continued to be reports of armed clashes between security forces and Islamic groups that oppose the Government and advocate for the establishment of an Islamic government that would enforce a more conservative form of Islam.

There were no reports of societal abuse or discrimination based on religious belief or practice. While specific information about relations among religious groups in the country is limited, minority religious leaders expressed contentment with the level of religious freedom.

here are a few tidbits from the 2010 report:

There were no reports of societal abuses or discrimination based on religious affiliation, belief, or practice.

Following the reestablishment of diplomatic relations with the country, the U.S. government continued to normalize bilateral relations and foster a multifaceted relationship with the government, including discussion of religious freedom as part of its overall policy to promote human rights.

The government continued to ban the once powerful Sufi Sanusiyya order. The order played an important role in the country's pre-revolutionary history and is closely associated with the former monarchy.

In 2006 the U.S. government upgraded its diplomatic representation in the country from a liaison office to an embassy. In 2006 the secretary of state rescinded the country's designation as a state sponsor of international terrorism, and in January 2009 the United States and the country exchanged ambassadors for the first time in 36 years. The U.S. government discusses religious freedom with the government as part of its overall policy to promote human rights. The embassy maintained regular contact with various religious denominations in the country consistent with its efforts to promote human rights and religious freedom.

[ChumpDumper]

So the conflict is based on minority religions whose members report being satisfied with the level of religious freedom with no reports of religious discrimination.

Great.



lol no airstrikes

[Wild Cobra]

Random, anyone can put words and context to a scene lacking clear context.

Are you sure in your conviction that these protesters weren't armed rebels instead?

[Wild Cobra]

So the conflict is based on minority religions whose members report being satisfied with the level of religious freedom with no reports of religious discrimination.

Great.



lol no airstrikes

Warplane shot down in Libyan rebel town of Benghazi belonged to rebels, rebels admit

[ChumpDumper]

Warplane shot down in Libyan rebel town of Benghazi belonged to rebels, rebels admit

Thanks for the clarification. The Washington Times didn't make that correction. Go figure.

[Wild Cobra]

Thanks for the clarification. The Washington Times didn't make that correction. Go figure.

I wonder how many more French built Mirage fighters the rebels have? How many of them are being mistaken for Qaddafi's forces?