The reality in Libya.

[LnGrrrR]

A question: While 97% of Libyans may be Sunni, that doesn't mean they all follow the tenets of Sunni Islam the same way, right? I mean, a ton of people identify as "Christians" in America, but have wildly differing views on what that means. Even when you break it down into subcategories such as Evangelical, Protestant, etc etc, they still have different ideas about how that religion "works".

[Wild Cobra]

A question: While 97% of Libyans may be Sunni, that doesn't mean they all follow the tenets of Sunni Islam the same way, right? I mean, a ton of people identify as "Christians" in America, but have wildly differing views on what that means. Even when you break it down into subcategories such as Evangelical, Protestant, etc etc, they still have different ideas about how that religion "works".

Religions freedom in Libya seems to go as far as being able to practice your beliefs, but not to influence others to. Especially minors from what I have gathered.

As for Sunni, Qaddafi has his own enforced interpretations about Sunni laws. If you notice, from one of the State Department links I furnished, he deals harshly with this wanting to impose a more severe form of Islam.

I ask this. Since the only ones Qaddafi imposes harsh sanctions or punishment on are armed rebels and a dangerous form of Islam, do we really want the rebels to win?

[ChumpDumper]

I wonder how many more French built Mirage fighters the rebels have? How many of them are being mistaken for Qaddafi's forces?

Who owns Russia Today, WC?

[Winehole23]

Speaking of Libya, read that Obama is going to tap the strategic petroleum reserve, allegedly to compensate for lost Libyan oil production. A completely unnecessary and foolish move IMO.

The United States and its industrial allies in the International Energy Agency announced Wednesday that they would release 60 million barrels of crude oil from reserves over the next 30 days. The news immediately sent oil prices down about 5 percent.



The release would be the biggest ever coordinated from strategic reserves, and over the next month it would exceed the amount of oil lost on world markets since the fighting in Libya. Half of the release would come from U.S. reserves.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/busine...KhH_story.html

[Wild Cobra]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/busine...KhH_story.html

Interesting how Supply and Demand can have such a dramatic effect on price with so little extra supply.

60 million of 726.5 million is about 8.26% of the reserves. What is that? about 2% of the daily world supply, but drops the price 5%?

[ChumpDumper]

That's because it's not all about supply and demand, simpleton.

[Wild Cobra]

That's because it's not all about supply and demand, simpleton.

Then it's unnatural outside of proper specualtion. If you are talking about speculators, they only have a limited impact they can control that isn't continuous. Prices based on real future speculation cannot be controlled by individuals. The release of 2 million barrels a day is ~2.35% of the daily word demand, and becomes part of the formula speculators will use in buying futures.

[ElNono]

Prices based on real future speculation cannot be controlled by individuals.

That's not true. When companies sign long term supply contracts they're affecting future prices. When speculators bet against or for those contracts (aka futures), they also affect future prices.

[Wild Cobra]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/busine...KhH_story.html

I see you dug back to post 40 to change the topic again. Does that mean you finally agree with me?

[Winehole23]

Not at all. I just lit on a better tangent.

[Wild Cobra]

Not at all. I just lit on a better tangent.

Doesn't it deserve it's own thread?

[ChumpDumper]

Doesn't it deserve it's own thread?

Authoritarian.

[Wild Cobra]

Authoritarian.

A question is authoritarian?

[Winehole23]

Doesn't it deserve it's own thread?

It's germane. Turmoil in Libya is one of the stated rationales for tapping the strategic reserves.

[Wild Cobra]

It's germane. Turmoil in Libya is one of the stated rationales for tapping the strategic reserves.

If we vetoed the action, we wouldn't be in that position now, would we?

[ChumpDumper]

A question is authoritarian?

Your forum cop mindset is tbh.

[Winehole23]

If we vetoed the action, we wouldn't be in that position now, would we?

True, but somewhat tautological. If the case had been different, things might have turned out differently.

[Wild Cobra]

True, but somewhat tautological. If the case had been different, things might have turned out differently.

So tell me again, why did we approve the action?

Was it because of the false reports of him attacking civilians?

How does that compare with our 2010 State Department report on Libya dated 11/17/10?

Did it really change so much in such a short time?

[RandomGuy]

Protests preceded the outright rebellion by several weeks, and I watched the videos of some of these well before the armed rebellion.

The potential for some of them to be inaccurate was also acknowledged. Any given one piece's accuracy or not matters much less than the rather large body of available material. The odds of ALL of it being bull are very remote, espeically when paired with eyewitness and other accounts that have come trickling out.

Most of the airbases are in the western part of the country near Tripoli. The "rebels" control no airforce of any measure, and certainly at the outset had fewer planes, and absolutely no motivation to destroy any caches of arms that they might potentially capture, nor fire on protests in the west that had largely ended by the time the armed rebellion took root.

Sufi muslims represent such a small part of the religious landscape that they are not mentioned in any description of religion in Libya. Sufis were commonly associated with other monarchies as well, being something of a mystic/esoteric/poetic offshoot that required a high degree of literacy to have been familiar with. I would be surprised if you could find more than a small enclave within Libya, and your given statement in no way indicated that they are present in large enough numbers to be a driving force in events in Libya. If you want to prove this point, you will need a lot more than a passing mention of a monarch 40+ years ago.

Your attempts to prevaricate and obfuscate on one or two data points does not outweigh the overall amount of evidence that contradicts your assertions.

A fair reading of the available evidence indicates that you were incorrect. Suck it up and move on.

[Winehole23]

So tell me again, why did we approve the action?

Beats me, honestly. Reps and Senators tend to follow the president more or less reflexively into war.

Was it because of the false reports of him attacking civilians?

You can gloss Qaddafi's crackdown any way you want, but there was a crackdown. Are you disputing that?

[RandomGuy]

So tell me again, why did we approve the action?

Was it because of the false reports of him attacking civilians?

How does that compare with our 2010 State Department report on Libya dated 11/17/10?

Did it really change so much in such a short time?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Spring

The Arab Spring (Arabic: الثورات العربية‎; literally the Arabic Rebellions or the Arab Revolutions) is a revolutionary wave of demonstrations and protests that has been taking place in the Arab world since 18 December 2010

The series of protests and demonstrations across the Middle East and North Africa has become known as the "Arab Spring",[28][29][30][31][32][33] and sometimes as the "Arab Spring and Winter"[34], "Arab Awakening"[35] or "Arab Uprisings"[36] even though not all participants in protests identify as Arab. It was sparked by the first protests that occurred in Tunisia on 18 December 2010 following Mohamed Bouazizi's self-immolation in protest of police corruption and ill treatment

The answer to your question, is yes. Yes, it has.

[RandomGuy]

Beats me, honestly. Reps and Senators tend to follow the president more or less reflexively into war.
You can gloss Qaddafi's crackdown any way you want, but there was a crackdown. Are you disputing that?

It would seem he is.

For his position to be logical, he has to argue that Ghadaffi, with a very long history of brutality, well-do ented for decades, suddenly developed a conscience and didn't actually open fire on unarmed protesters.

From what I have read here, the soucres seem to check out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Libyan_civil_war

Treatment of protests

During the protests, security forces repeatedly fired into demonstrations and funeral processions. As the protests progressed, the Libyan government employed snipers, artillery, helicopter gunships, warplanes, anti-aircraft weaponry, and warships against demonstrations and funeral processions.[141] Amnesty International reported that writers, intellectuals and other prominent opposition sympathizers disappeared during the early days of the conflict in cities controlled by Gaddafi, and that they may have been subjected to torture or execution.[142] Amnesty International also reported that security forces targeted paramedics helping injured protesters.[143] In multiple incidents, Gaddafi's forces were do ented using ambulances in their attacks.[144][145] Injured demonstrators were sometimes denied access to hospitals and ambulance transport. The government also banned giving blood transfusions to people who had taken part in the demonstrations.[146] Members of Gaddafi's Revolutionary Committees stormed hospitals in Tripoli and removed the dead. Injured protesters were either summarily executed or had their oxygen masks, IV drips, and wires connected to the monitors removed, and were taken away. The dead and injured were piled into Toyota Land Cruisers and taken away, possibly for cremation.[147][148] Doctors were prevented from do enting the numbers of dead and wounded, but an orderly in a Tripoli hospital morgue estimated to the BBC that 600–700 protesters were killed in Green Square in Tripoli on 20 February. The orderly claimed that ambulances brought in three or four corpses at a time, and that after the ice lockers were filled to capacity, bodies were placed on stretchers or the floor, and that "it was in the same at the other hospitals".[147]

One or even ten accounts I could see as fabrications.

All of them? No. Given that the violence dovetails with past behavior of the regime?

Only an idiot would argue that.

[Wild Cobra]

You can gloss Qaddafi's crackdown any way you want, but there was a crackdown. Are you disputing that?

Not at all. He has been cracking down on rebels for years. He does not tolerate those who want to enforce a more conservative Sharia Law than what he does.

Remember when I said this:

There is no comparison between Libya and most other nations with bad dictators. Libya has the highest HDI of all African nations and rates #53 world wide. Mexico rates #56, Brazil #73, China #89. ElNono's home of Argentina rates a little better at #46. I wonder how Libya's ratings will be after the ratings are compiled next time.

Saudi Arabia #55, Egypt #101, Iran #70, and Syria is #111.

#53 of 169 rated nations isn't shabby. He may be a bad dictator, but the people weren't as bad off as many other places. I find it unconscionable that our nation had a hand in this. Obama has brought shame upon us.

We have made possible a civil war. A war that would have never gone this far if we didn't take out the forces to keep the nation at peace. Obama and the UN potentially has the blood of 100's of thousands on his hands.

Now our State Department report on Human Rights shows Libya is a nation lacking in western values, but for those who obey the law, they have it better than most places in the world. Remember, we may not like how they do things, but it is a sovereign nation and should be respected as such. Consider this, from the 4/8/11 Human Rights report on Libya:

Persons with Disabilities

The law provides for the rights of persons with physical, sensory, intellectual and mental disabilities and provides for monetary and other types of social assistance. A number of government-approved organizations cared for persons with disabilities and protected access to employment, education, health care, and other state services. Few public facilities had adequate access for persons with physical disabilities, and there was limited access to information or communications.

e. Acceptable Conditions of Work

The labor law defines the rights and duties of workers except for migrant workers and includes matters of compensation, pension rights, minimum rest periods, and working hours. Although some public sector categories, such as professors, have received pay increases in recent years, a freeze imposed more than a decade ago continued to depress earnings. The minimum wage was 250 dinars ($208) per month. The government paid an additional pension of 90 dinars ($75) for a single person, 130 dinars ($108) for a married couple, and 180 dinars ($150) for a family of more than two. Although there was no information available regarding whether the average wage was sufficient to provide a worker and family with a decent standard of living, the government heavily subsidized rent and utilities, and government workers received an additional 130 dinars ($108) per month for food staples during the year. Contracts, written in Arabic, exist for migrant workers and are the legal basis for granting visas for temporary workers. Contracts are only for legal immigrants and are a requirement for the hiring business to sponsor the worker; as a result, they are rare and generally only used if the business is closely monitored or regulated.

Now remember. This report makes statements based on our perspective and standards.

[Wild Cobra]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Spring

The answer to your question, is yes. Yes, it has.

Sure, the uprising has. Not Qaddafi's actions.

Does that mean we are a nation of lemmings to the Arab Spring?

[Wild Cobra]

It would seem he is.

For his position to be logical, he has to argue that Ghadaffi, with a very long history of brutality, well-do ented for decades, suddenly developed a conscience and didn't actually open fire on unarmed protesters.

From what I have read here, the soucres seem to check out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Libyan_civil_war
Treatment of protests

During the protests, security forces repeatedly fired into demonstrations and funeral processions. As the protests progressed, the Libyan government employed snipers, artillery, helicopter gunships, warplanes, anti-aircraft weaponry, and warships against demonstrations and funeral processions.[141] Amnesty International reported that writers, intellectuals and other prominent opposition sympathizers disappeared during the early days of the conflict in cities controlled by Gaddafi, and that they may have been subjected to torture or execution.[142] Amnesty International also reported that security forces targeted paramedics helping injured protesters.[143] In multiple incidents, Gaddafi's forces were do ented using ambulances in their attacks.[144][145] Injured demonstrators were sometimes denied access to hospitals and ambulance transport. The government also banned giving blood transfusions to people who had taken part in the demonstrations.[146] Members of Gaddafi's Revolutionary Committees stormed hospitals in Tripoli and removed the dead. Injured protesters were either summarily executed or had their oxygen masks, IV drips, and wires connected to the monitors removed, and were taken away. The dead and injured were piled into Toyota Land Cruisers and taken away, possibly for cremation.[147][148] Doctors were prevented from do enting the numbers of dead and wounded, but an orderly in a Tripoli hospital morgue estimated to the BBC that 600–700 protesters were killed in Green Square in Tripoli on 20 February. The orderly claimed that ambulances brought in three or four corpses at a time, and that after the ice lockers were filled to capacity, bodies were placed on stretchers or the floor, and that "it was in the same at the other hospitals".[147]

One or even ten accounts I could see as fabrications.

All of them? No. Given that the violence dovetails with past behavior of the regime?

Only an idiot would argue that.

Have you even followed the sources cited?

Why do the protesters have weapons, then claimed to be innocent protesters?