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Dang, I can't see the graphic now that I posted. Dont know why. Maybe someone can go to http://www.basketball-reference.com/...bowenbr01.html and post it for us.
Hey I know we all remember Bowen as an 8 time All-NBA defensive player (5 1st team) and career .393 3Pt. shooter. It seems fatuous to compare Bruce to a rookie who has yet to start a game--but it's Summer so what the . Let's have some speculative fun and argument--without flaming each other if possible.
In my opinion the prerequisite for a Bowen/Leonarde comparison is that unmeasureable--the "defense-first" mind set.
Everything I've heard or seen so far makes me think the kid knows his special talent is relentless defense and he takes great pride in it. I saw one quote where he said he always wanted to guard the other teams best scorer and hold him below his average in scoring and rebounds. O.
Phycially they are both 6'7" although Bruce was 185 and Leonard is over 230 with virtually zero body fat. Guy looks like he's wearing a turtle s . Leonard has those freaky hands and wingspan better than Bynum. It looks to me in brief videos that he is more athlectic than Bruce as well and that may mean something when he starts puting up stat numbers.
Speaking of stats below are Bruce's career stats. Looking at them may give us an idea of his playing strengths and weaknesses and then we can speculate on where Leonard's strength and weaknesses are.
[IMG]file:///C:/Users/wildbill/AppData/Roaming/M8%20Software/Spartan_Data/Clips/OL39.jpg[/IMG]
I'm not gonna post any more of my conclusions or speculations until I get some feedback. Have fun.
Last edited by wildbill2u; 06-26-2011 at 03:01 PM. Reason: Want to change title
Dang, I can't see the graphic now that I posted. Dont know why. Maybe someone can go to http://www.basketball-reference.com/...bowenbr01.html and post it for us.
You can't post images that reside on your own local hard drive. You have to first upload them to the internet, such as using a site like http://tinypic.com/
Leonard is more athletic and better offensively, bowen is better defensively because he had no offensive game to worry about except one corner shot and concentrated all his efforts on defense.
Can't compare till I see him play.
Thanks a lot. This will make it easier and more fun.You can't post images that reside on your own local hard drive. You have to first upload them to the internet, such as using a site like http://tinypic.com/
Leonard is 19.
Bowen was 29 and had been a pro for nearly a decade before he reinvented himself as a defensive specialist.
Comparing Leonard to Bowen will just lead to unrealistic expectations.
You'r no fun. Speculate. Have an opinion. This isn't rocket science and there are no right or wrong answers.
Example: Looking at his rebounding effort in college (led all SF draftees in rebounding) Do you think he might use that wingspan, weight and willingness to mix it up to rebound better than Bowen's average of 2.8 per game?
I have low expectations for Leonard. I'm not expecting him to be the next Bowen, that's unfair to him and he doesn't need that pressure.
I just want to see maximum effort on defense and a willingness to learn.
I'd say the records dispute your premise. He bounced around in minor leagues and short term deals on NBA rosters from 95-2000. During that time he sure wasn't an offensive player if you look at the stats.
He had to be a defensive specialist. And by his first full year of play in 2000-2001 he made the all defensive NBA team. I contend you don't suddenly develop that skillset our of a thin air reinvention.
The unrealistic expectation issue might be legitimate if stated that it isn't realistic to assume that Leonard will make the team and get some burn. I can respect that opinion--although I think he will get some playing time until he proves he can't play.
i expect his first season to have the same stats as bowens career avg 6ppg aint hard, when blair, hill, neal and anderson score those type of numbers for their first year...
I think he'll be a Gerald Wallace type player when Leonard reaches his prime, or even better than Wallace. From all the articles I've read, he doesn't block a lot of shots (occasionally he does) but what he does best is challenge shots extremely well and stay in front of his man. He's got the body and work ethic to become a lock down defender in the NBA. I've heard that his lateral quickness is questionable and that'll hurt him a lot if he's trying to guard SG's, but it is fixable. Leonard is also extremely good at playing the passing lanes, part of it is due to those looong arms, but I've heard he's a bit too anxious sometimes and gambles a lot, leaving his man uncovered (just like Manu). Offensively he's actually a very good passer, he can score in the paint and post up, he's got a mid range shot as well. His offensive game reminds me a lot of Blair, the way Leonard likes to bang and throw his body around in the paint, he does a lot of the dirty work. Leonard gives it his all on the court, that's what everybody says about him, he's a high motor guy that just won't stop playing hard, dude is relentless.
He's got a lot of potential, and I think that potential will be brought out with all his hard work. This guy is a gym rat, he's always working out trying to get better, he wants to be the best. From what I understand the Spurs also have one of the best training facilities in the NBA, that was what RMJ said anyways, he wanted to sign with a team that had the equipment etc. to help him get better which was a major reason in him signing. That'll only help Leonard reach his potential. During the summer of his freshman season he was asked what he was trying to improve on and one of the things he said was his endurance, he said "Even though I wasn't really tired during the games last year I feel like I could improve on my endurance to help me play at my best all game long" or something like that I can't find the article... Anyways that just shows you the type of guy he is.
Leonard's already changed his shot mechanics during the summer (how many college players actually do that?) and has been working a lot on his offensive game like dribbling, shooting and extending his range. He knows his flaws and his limits, and he's always trying to correct those, his basketball IQ is very high.
As you pointed out, Leonard is much heavier. While his sprint speed is pretty good, a key is going to be his lateral quickness. Bowen's was highly underrated. If Leonard doesn't have enough of it, then he won't be able to stay with 2s and his ceiling will be just a better-defending version of Blair. Which might not be so bad.
Originally Posted by Texas_Ranger
Can't compare till I see him play.
compare without seeing him play?
Okay well I'm from SD and have seen him play.
Lateral quickness compared to Bowens? Leonard is slow moving laterally. At present he would get killed by the faster SFs. The top SFs would absolutely destroy him.
His strengths are blocking out and positioning for rebounds. Very good at those. But not nearly as good as Grizzly Blair. But then who is?
Did someone say Leonard Cohen?
don't compare him to the one and only Bruce, he's not the master of defense, but he could be a very good defender and excellent rebounder, i'll compare him to Shawn Marion!!
Bowen's NBA record before Miami only tells you that he couldn't get a steady NBA gig during those years. Without his European stats you have a very incomplete record. His basketball evolution has been told in various articles that have been the subject of ST threads through the years. Bowen was a featured offensive player in Europe, notably during his years in France. When he finally wound up in Miami, Riley told him he could stick in the NBA if devoted himself on the defensive side of the ball. Bowen took the advice and the rest is history.
As to Leonard, all the write-ups and his college stats point to a Gerald Wallace-type player. We're seeing comparisons to Bowen because he's going to play SF on the Spurs and he has some reputation as good defender. Otherwise, he doesn't seem similar to Bowen at all. He has great rebounding numbers, the one statistic that most reliably translates from college to the NBA. Bowen was never much of rebounder. Their offensive games seem completely dissimilar, with Bowen's offense coming almost exclusively from beyond the arc and Leonard getting a good portion of his offense close to, and above, the rim.
Finally, whether Leonard plays 30 mpg or sits all year on the bench, I stand by my position that comparisons to a franchise icon like Bowen set unrealistic expectations for a rookie player.
In all the footage of Leonard available on youtube and through DraftExpress, I must admit there was an instance of Leonard covering a guy where I thought, "Damn, he really does look and move like Bruce there!". But it was only once and my mind was probably playing tricks on me.
SI's "Best National Radio Show Host (of the Decade)", Bob Kemp, on draft night called Leonard "Bruce Bowen Jr.", though I don't think he meant literally that he played like Bowen, only that he was a very good defender and would be one for the Spurs. He did call him the "Perfect Spur".
Kemp is someone whose knowledge of college and pro basketball is lightyears ahead of most other radio show media people, because his shows aren't idiotic "man-stuff" or lame comedy bits, but intense fact-based sports discussion. Doesn't mean he's always right, just that I value his opinion much more than most anyone else, including ESPN's experts.
In 2008 he was one of the few who could talk about George Hill with an informed viewpoint as he actually watched more than a single tourny game with IUPUI. He also was vocal about how good James Anderson was the entire NCAA season before the Spurs drafted him.
If Kemp likes a player, it goes a long way with me.
Leonard has hair and tattoos and doesn't wear bow ties.
Hands of Hawkins for sure. If Leonard can score like Connie did, then the Spurs will end up with an All-Star player and another jersey in the rafters.
Leonard is 230 lbs. I think he's a SF and PF defender - not a 2 guard defender. The boy shouldn't be asked to guard everyone...sooner or later, the Spurs are going to have to rely on ALL FIVE players on the court playing solid defense. They got that in Anderson, the new PG they drafted, Leonard, TD (to some degree) and possibly Splitter.
Bruce Bowen or not - let's put him up against good SFs and see what he can do 1st. After that, maybe he can assume the BB roll...
Leonard did guard Jimmer in college.
Chasing around 6'2" guards in one game, defending power forwards the next . . . you gotta admit, that's a little Bowen-ish.
I don't need to read any further. This nailed it. Linton Johnson was going to be the next Bruce Bowen. Ime Udoka was going to be the next Bruce Bowen. Probably others - not worth dredging the mental archives. Bruce had paid a lot of dues before he got here. No matter how much talent this kid has, he'll need time.
I never said he was LIKE Bruce Bowen and started the thread with a bow to Bowen's achievements.
But this guy will probably play at SF and I just wanted to compare his strengths and weaknesses at the position to Bowen's. Bowen is the most respected SF on the Spurs since Sean and Bowen wasn't LIKE Sean, but you could compare the strength and weaknesses of their games.
No one has ever been able to move laterally like Bowen without bending his knees and staying tall, freakish ability. Personally I have never seen anything like it. Add to this that Bruce's hands were as quick as Manu's... No comparison.
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