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Lots of steals requires gambling. Bowen did not do this. His hand D was to harrass and knock the ball loose. To get a steal on the stat sheet one has to gain control.
I always thought it was strange that Bruce's stats on steals was so low. He had about .8 per game. Manu is at 1.5.
I have a feeling that Leonard is going to continue to get a lot of steals with that wing span and huge hands. You can see that in his college videos. He'll be at cutting off the passing lanes and will get some tips and blocked passes from players he guards.
Lots of steals requires gambling. Bowen did not do this. His hand D was to harrass and knock the ball loose. To get a steal on the stat sheet one has to gain control.
Funny, but most good defensive players with quick hands are good at steals BECAUSE their hand speed and footspeed enables them to knock the ball loose AND control it. Sure they often tip it to another player as well but speed tells and the top players hit it and get it.
The top NBA players for steals over the years have been players with speed and quick hands, usually guards like Chris Paul, Rondo, Iverson, M. Jordan, John Stockton and our own Alvin Robertson.
This year the top five in steal pct. are:
1.Tony Allen-MEM4.52.Chris Paul-NOH3.53.Rajon Rondo-BOS3.24.Russell Westbrook-OKC2.85.Ron Artest-LAL2.7
Call it a conscious decision not to gamble if you will, (and I don't know how you can get into his mind) but result show Bowen simply wasn't very good at steals. It doesn't detract from his overall defense, but that's a fact.
I've seen very little of Leonard, but Blair is not a bad touch passer. In fact, the thing I like best about his game (other than the offensive rebounding) is how he understands angles and spacing on offense, which is why he works with Manu so well.
And hey, wait . . . did you just call me old?
Not true. If the statistician knows what he's doing, you should just have to be the one causing the other team to lose possession.
It's not a bad thing to get a lot of steals if you can get a lot of STOPS. That's what Bruce did so valiantly with the team during the le runs. He'd force these offensive juggernauts into a day where their efficiency took a dump because of his pressure.Call it a conscious decision not to gamble if you will, (and I don't know how you can get into his mind) but result show Bowen simply wasn't very good at steals. It doesn't detract from his overall defense, but that's a fact.
What's good to point out is that Leonard isn't really the gambling type either. He's of that GET THE STOP mentality.
See the San Diego Union Trib Video of him when playing for Coach Steve Fisher to get some perspective.
http://bcove.me/a12awn8t
Bowen didn't gamble on defense. He stayed the home, and forced the best shooters on opposing teams to take bad shots or pass the ball. And in case you haven't noticed, Pop doesn't appreciate gambling defense. Guys who go after a lot of steals tend to wind up in the doghouse.
dunno why comparing him to bowen who has no inside game
should be comparing to jax
I think Bruce will go down as the better on the ball defender, but Leonard has the potential to be a bigger offensive threat and easily a better rebounder. Not to take away from Bruce's stellar accomplishments on D, but it helps to know you have prime Duncan behind you.
Basically all guards that gamble. Guards have ball in hand more often so have more of a chance to steal just like posts have a better position to rebound. And none of those guys on the list (except Jordan) and including Artest(meta world idiot), was as good as Bowen imo. Iverson is a perfect example of the gambler. So I respectfully, but totally disagree. Bowen could guard a wider range of players than anyone on that list as well. Stockton was very good at cheating off his man as is Westbrook but both could be had backdoor because of this and both did get burned on this. Although Stockton could was so smart/dirty he would find a way back to at least hack the out of his man.
And of course its a decision not to gamble when you cover the best player on the floor. You play position instead of overplaying and gambling. You make them work every play. Bowen did not come off people to double that often, he tirelessly followed guys like Rip Hamilton or even Dirk around screens. Nothing easy. Ginobili had chances to double because he did not cover the best man on the court when Bowen played. So I dont think steals are the best indicator of how good a defender you are just like blocked shots are not. Marcus Camby won defensive player of the year while at Denver by getting blocks after leaving his man. The same year when the Spurs play Denver in the playoffs, Camby does not cover Duncan? The defensive player of the year does not cover the best player on the other team that plays basically the same position?
I think Bowen's lateral quickness was FAR superior to this guy. And also he could lift a 185lb bar up more than 3 times.
I get a feeling this guy will be a classic tweener.. not strong enough to guard the "big" forwards, and not quick enough to guard the "fast" ones. He certainly isn't going to be guarding 1's and 2's or even 4's like Bowen could (with ease I might add).
This thread is a complete joke. This guy will be nowhere even close to Bruce Bowen in terms of ability and versatility on defense. If the comparison was to Keith Bogans, then we might have something to talk about.
The boy is 19
Can't we wait until he plays some minutes in a real NBA game to compare him to someone?
Next you'll give us a referential lift chart that supports your hypotheses and then enthrall us with your knowledge of the defensive alignments that Hank Egan instilled in Pop as a player at Air Force. Seriously...I asked the question, how many complete games have you seen Leonard play?
I'll say 3 at most and they were watched in March. Yeah...got it, your powers of observation are legendary...in your own mind.
In another thread:
Blair (with better defense).
Bynum (with larger widespan).
Sprewell.
Here.
Bowen
Wallace
Connie Hawkins (!!!!!)
I wonder how long is it going to take before someone brings up Julius Erving.
Respectfully, from the times I have tried to keep track myself the NBA stat men do not use the FIBA rule on steals. A defensive player can knock a ball free in a crowd, his team gains possession and it goes as a turnover, the steal is forgotten and or not seen. They dont go back to look at instant replay to see if the defender deflected the ball, its easier to just give a TO.I've seen very little of Leonard, but Blair is not a bad touch passer. In fact, the thing I like best about his game (other than the offensive rebounding) is how he understands angles and spacing on offense, which is why he works with Manu so well.
And hey, wait . . . did you just call me old?
Not true. If the statistician knows what he's doing, you should just have to be the one causing the other team to lose possession.
We are getting away from the original intent of the thread, so I apologize.
Hes going to be much better then Udoka and thats all that matters to me.
Well, one thing's for certain, I don't think Bruce would have been caught dead in this suit.
Kinda looses it's steam at that point.
Well, one thing's for certain, I don't think Bruce would have been caught dead in this suit.
I particularly appreciate that white blob of uncertified tissue coming out of the pocket.
Lookit Leonard shaking Stern's hand at the podium. Sheesh. He could have wrapped his mitt completely around the Commissioner's. If you block the top half of the photo it's like he's holding a little boy's hand.
Its called defense. Something rarely seen by todays NBA players or taught by coaches.
To answer the question the kid will have to get quicker, smarter and become a better shooter in order to even match Bowen. Instincts cant be taught either.....
In reference to FIBA rules I totally agree that NBA stats should include deflections. In that case Blair would be the man BY FAR.
It isnt fair if a player pokes a ball loose and another player picks it up (gets the steal and the points in a fast break situation) and the deflector does not get an assist or a steal.
the big question is can he guard Dirk. Bowen did very well. i remember the block on Dirk during the playoffs. i remember when we used to move Bowen around defensively to guard whoever was hot on the other team regardless of position.
Nobody can guard Dirk. I swear the guy has worked on his game to where he is a lot tougher to guard than in Bowen's day. He used to just hang around the perimeter, looking for his jump shot opportunities. Even then, Dirk got his points--Bowen was just able to keep them down sometimes from his average.
Dirk now regularly posts up smaller, lighter players to get that short range step back jumper off one foot. That wasn't in the arsenal then. He also has developed his ability to drive to the basket as well as some good post moves near the basket.
Bowen had great footspeed, lateral quickness and was always in great defensive positions. Hard to compare until I see Leonard in action.
Defense without bending the knees in order to stay tall is not something that can be taught imo. Bruce could shuffle without bending his knees like some sort of river walk/dance freak, and Im not talking about our river walk.
The NBA does try to use the FIBA criteria for steals, I just dont think its done carefully and therefore is overrated as a stat just like blocks. I think the Mavs showed how much can be done with position, switching, closing-out properly and good help D. Of course having Chandler and Marion helped a bit as well.
I apologize again for getting off subject. I hope Leonard can be 65% of what Bowen was on D and add a few other things. Long rebounding would really help as well. It appears that Manu is the best on our team at hunting down the long rebound, thats not good.
Last edited by pgardn; 06-27-2011 at 02:23 PM.
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