Matt Bonner Offseason 11/12 Training Video Inside

[ElNono]

This is true.

ElNono is no bandwagoner or Johnny-come-lately when we're talking about Bonner hate.

He's been steadfast in his position since the 08-09 season.

[Blake]

His +/- is a terrible gauge of his individual performance in the series, period.
Same applies to every other Spurs for that matter. It's just the wrong stat to gauge player's individual performances, simply because there's much more better stats for that.

great, give the better stats that shows why he deserves the hate.

He allowed a guy like Darrell Arthur to shoot 55% from the field. It's the same Darrell Arthur that could only shoot 38% in the next round and averages 46% career-wise. By Game 4, we were commenting in the game thread how Arthur was going straight at him for 3+ consecutive possessions, even when ZBo was out there on the floor.

Was Bonner defending Arthur every time he shot?

Really?

Season RS-3P% Playoffs-3P%
08-09 44% 23%
09-10 39% 37%
10-11 46% 33%

08-09: you might have an argument.

09-10: 2% difference isn't a choke no matter how much hate fuels the reasoning

10-11: again, 2-3 more makes out of 18 shots and he is right at average.....in a 6 game sample.....I don't see the choke.

He's not the NBA's top 3 point shooter.

You are nitpicking percentage vs makes?

Wow, the hate is strong.

He wasn't in the regular season and obviously not even close in the playoffs, when it really matters, for a team that supposedly had championship aspirations. And the Spurs are paying him a guaranteed $9 million over 3 years. Heck, $12 million if they pick up the last year's option.

$3 million a year is fair for Bonner, imo.

I still don't see a good reason for the hate.

[ElNono]

great, give the better stats that shows why he deserves the hate.

Already done, plenty of times. You can go back to the multiple threads discussing this over the years if you feel inclined. I think the last one was with chazley a few months back.

Was Bonner defending Arthur every time he shot?

A good amount of time. Especially when Arthur was purposely attacking Bonner. There's no need to take my word for it, you can go back and watch the games, bump the relevant threads.

08-09: you might have an argument.

09-10: 2% difference isn't a choke no matter how much hate fuels the reasoning

Oh yes it is, this was probably the worse. You're looking at the numbers but not at the details.
Spurs played 10 playoff games that season. Matty's 3Pt in the first 8 games (6 vs Dallas, 2 vs Suns): 5-22 or 22%. He was 3-4 and 2-3 in the last two games to bump up the percentage numbers.

Ultimately, I can argue he sucked all season long. 37% for somebody that brings absolutely nothing else to the table is not enough to offset what he gives up on the other end.

10-11: again, 2-3 more makes out of 18 shots and he is right at average.....in a 6 game sample.....I don't see the choke.

If Kobe didn't mostly suck in the Finals, he would be Jordan.
The whole "coulda, shoulda, woulda" misses the point completely. If he would have made those shots maybe we wouldn't have lost, and maybe he wouldn't be criticized.

You are nitpicking percentage vs makes?
Wow, the hate is strong.

I actually take that back. I thought Ray Allen surpassed him in percentage in the last month of the regular season, when Matt's shooting plummeted.

That said, it doesn't change the fact that his shooting took a nose dive during the playoffs (#39 overall)

$3 million a year is fair for Bonner, imo.

There's certainly worse contracts in the league. He just isn't the player the Spurs need in that position. Which makes $3 million we could be spending on a player that's actually useful.

I still don't see a good reason for the hate.

I'm not going to try to convince you. Matty makes my points for me year in and year out.

[jjktkk]

I don't even hate Bonner. I just hate that he is used too much. If Pop used him right he would be a great player in our system. Just 10 minutes here and there as-needed, and he would make plenty of 3's, without feeling so much pressure. Right now he is asked to do too much, things that he physically can't do, because we are so thin at the PF position. Adding another solid post/rebounding player to that rotation would be perfect.

This.

[ElNono]

I'm all for a reduced role for him. A role like Cardinal/Mahinmi in Dallas when Haywood wasn't hurt.

[jjktkk]

Most of us know Bonner gets too many minutes. We have to hope the Spur's FO can, somehow, land a starting 4/5, to play alongside Duncan, which, hopefully, keeps Bonner in a reduced role.

[ElNono]

Most of us know Bonner gets too many minutes. We have to hope the Spur's FO can, somehow, land a starting 4/5, to play alongside Duncan, which, hopefully, keeps Bonner in a reduced role.

Should've happened two seasons ago

[hater]

a 3 page discussion on why Bonner doesn't suck.

this has been proven over and over during the playoffs.

[Blake]

on the fact that every opponent that faces a Bonner 1-1 defense starts salivating and eyes light up. Then proceeds to break Bonner's ankles and 90% of the time results in points for their team.

on the fact that Bonner always looks over at Pop everytime he does something stupid which is 80% of the time.

on the fact when he faces a hand in his face while shooting 3s. His % drops to around 20%.

and you got these percentage stats from where?

my guess is from the hate.

[Blake]

+/- is so flawed that I'm not sure if Blake is trolling by quoting Bonner's +/- stats.

you brought up net positives, not me. +/- shows net positives and negatives for the team when a player is on the floor.

If you have stats that aren't flawed that justify the hate, please provide. I'd love to see them.

When Lebron James scored 29 of the last 30 points in game 5 of the '07 ECF vs the Pistons to lead the Cavs to an improbable victory on the road, Boobie Gibson and Sasha Pavlovic had the same +/- as James over that stretch, so do they get equal credit as James for that victory?

A player can achieve a +/- score either by willing his team single-handedly to victory with little help from his teammates, or get the same score by standing around doing nothing watching a superstar carry his team.

you brought up net positives.

statistically show how Bonner was a net negative, deserving of such hate.

[ElNono]

I'll give you a statistical anomaly of Matty, using some of the stats normally used to gauge individual performance. There's not one, not a single one, advanced stat that he either sustains or improves from the regular season to the playoffs.

Regular Season Advanced Stats:

PER	TS%	eFG%	ORB%	DRB%	TRB%	AST%	STL%	BLK%	TOV%	USG%	ORtg	DRtg	OWS	DWS	WS	WS/48
14.3	.585	.568	6.6	15.7	11.2	6.3	1.3	1.2	7.6	15.7	119	107	17.2	10.1	27.3	0.141

Playoffs Advanced Stats:

PER	TS%	eFG%	ORB%	DRB%	TRB%	AST%	STL%	BLK%	TOV%	USG%	ORtg	DRtg	OWS	DWS	WS	WS/48
8.3	.523	.490	5.9	13.7	9.8	3.1	0.9	1.1	10.7	13.5	105	110	0.2	0.3	0.5	0.053

source

[Cessation]

Ginger shot 26% from 3, last 2 months of the season including the playoffs. I'm sure that stat is more accure than plus/minus.

[Blake]

Already done, plenty of times. You can go back to the multiple threads discussing this over the years if you feel inclined. I think the last one was with chazley a few months back.

I'm not inclined.

I'll continue to laugh at the hate.

A good amount of time. Especially when Arthur was purposely attacking Bonner. There's no need to take my word for it, you can go back and watch the games, bump the relevant threads.

you said "Arthur shot 55% against Bonner" and now you say "you go find it".



meh, I'm betting your hatred for Bonner and my amusement of such hatred will still persist, whether I debunk your claim or not.

Oh yes it is, this was probably the worse. You're looking at the numbers but not at the details.
Spurs played 10 playoff games that season. Matty's 3Pt in the first 8 games (6 vs Dallas, 2 vs Suns): 5-22 or 22%. He was 3-4 and 2-3 in the last two games to bump up the percentage numbers.

so he bumped up the numbers. so what?

it's not a choke.

Ultimately, I can argue he sucked all season long. 37% for somebody that brings absolutely nothing else to the table is not enough to offset what he gives up on the other end.

37%? where are you getting this from?

If Kobe didn't mostly suck in the Finals, he would be Jordan.
The whole "coulda, shoulda, woulda" misses the point completely. If he would have made those shots maybe we wouldn't have lost, and maybe he wouldn't be criticized.

the hate for this guy is just ing hilarious.

ok, which 2 or 3 shots did he miss that might have changed the course of the playoffs for the Spurs.

I actually take that back. I thought Ray Allen surpassed him in percentage in the last month of the regular season, when Matt's shooting plummeted.

That said, it doesn't change the fact that his shooting took a nose dive during the playoffs (#39 overall)

lol nosedive

There's certainly worse contracts in the league. He just isn't the player the Spurs need in that position. Which makes $3 million we could be spending on a player that's actually useful.

I'm not going to try to convince you. Matty makes my points for me year in and year out.

That's a lot of effort to not try to convince me.

I still don't see the point of such hatred.

[Blake]

I'll give you a statistical anomaly of Matty, using some of the stats normally used to gauge individual performance. There's not one, not a single one, advanced stat that he either sustains or improves from the regular season to the playoffs.

Regular Season Advanced Stats:

PER	TS%	eFG%	ORB%	DRB%	TRB%	AST%	STL%	BLK%	TOV%	USG%	ORtg	DRtg	OWS	DWS	WS	WS/48
14.3	.585	.568	6.6	15.7	11.2	6.3	1.3	1.2	7.6	15.7	119	107	17.2	10.1	27.3	0.141

Playoffs Advanced Stats:

PER	TS%	eFG%	ORB%	DRB%	TRB%	AST%	STL%	BLK%	TOV%	USG%	ORtg	DRtg	OWS	DWS	WS	WS/48
8.3	.523	.490	5.9	13.7	9.8	3.1	0.9	1.1	10.7	13.5	105	110	0.2	0.3	0.5	0.053

source

great. which of these numbers exactly jumps out at you that causes such hatred.

have you looked at the numbers of all the Spurs and were there any that actually improved their numbers from the regular season?

[cheguevara]

and you got these percentage stats from where?

my guess is from the hate.

If you need percentage stats to decide that Bonner sucks, you really have other pressing issues in your life

[ElNono]

I'm not inclined.
I'll continue to laugh at the hate.

Nobody is stopping you.

you said "Arthur shot 55% against Bonner" and now you say "you go find it".

It's real easy to see that Arthur shot 55% in the first round. You have to go see the games to see who scored the bulk of those points against.

Again, don't take my word for it. Since it's evident that you care, go find out by yourself.

Oh, and if you're going to say "you said xxxx", please quote me. Because I can't find in this thread where I said "Arthur shot 55% against Bonner". I actually would have to go back and look at the games, but I think that percentage is actually higher against him.

meh, I'm betting your hatred for Bonner and my amusement of such hatred will still persist, whether I debunk your claim or not.

That's ok. I'm actually entertained by this discussion.
You also haven't proven that the hate is misguided or dispelled the notion that Bonner is anything but a mediocre player.

so he bumped up the numbers. so what?

So he did choke in the playoffs.

it's not a choke.

Sure it is.

37%? where are you getting this from?

In the previous post:

09-10 39% 37%

the hate for this guy is just ing hilarious.

You don't need to apologize for him. He's what he is: a mediocre player.

ok, which 2 or 3 shots did he miss that might have changed the course of the playoffs for the Spurs.

Already explained earlier in the thread:

Not so sure about that. When somebody is shooting lights out (and .50 would've been lights out), you have to pay attention to him. Which is the entire premise of "stretching the floor". It's not volume scoring, but to be enough of a threat to force the other team to pay attention to you, opening the middle to your teammates.

Fact is, he was left wide open to take shots as the series wore on, and he either clanked them or passed them up. Watch the games.

lol nosedive

Ginger shot 26% from 3, last 2 months of the season

lol indeed

That's a lot of effort to not try to convince me.

That I'm not trying to convince you doesn't mean that this topic doesn't amuse me. It's actually a great way to re-hash that dude's mediocre game and vent about it.
You're far from the first guy I have an argument with about this. Sorry.

I still don't see the point of such hatred.

Okay.

[Blake]

If you need percentage stats to decide that Bonner sucks, you really have other pressing issues in your life

I don't.

I think it's funny you waste time in your life hating Bonner.

[Chomag]

Blake, if you stopped looking at just stats and watch the actual games I wouldn't know how you could say what you are saying with a strait face.

[cheguevara]

I don't.

I think it's funny you waste time in your life hating Bonner.

I will stop hating on Bonner when he is gone from the team or chained to the bench. It's all on Pop's hands.

[Blake]

Ginger shot 26% from 3, last 2 months of the season including the playoffs. I'm sure that stat is more accure than plus/minus.

so he shot worse than 26% in the last 2 months going into the playoffs.

since this is true, how many fewer minutes should Bonner have played then in the playoffs and do the Spurs get by the Grizz if he plays less?

[jjktkk]

I don't.

I think it's funny you waste time in your life hating Bonner.

Its just as funny watching you attepting to defend Bonner with useless stats.

[ElNono]

since this is true, how many fewer minutes should Bonner have played then in the playoffs and do the Spurs get by the Grizz if he plays less?

Strawman alert...

[ElNono]

tbh, surprised Fabbs haven't chimed in with some Popper Tea Party and some pics such as:

[Blake]

Nobody is stopping you.

I know.

It's real easy to see that Arthur shot 55% in the first round. You have to go see the games to see who scored the bulk of those points against.

Define 'bulk'

Again, don't take my word for it. Since it's evident that you care, go find out by yourself.

I don't care enough about your hatred for Bonner to verify your claims.

Oh, and if you're going to say "you said xxxx", please quote me. Because I can't find in this thread where I said "Arthur shot 55% against Bonner". I actually would have to go back and look at the games, but I think that percentage is actually higher against him.

you:

He allowed a guy like Darrell Arthur to shoot 55% from the field.

That's ok. I'm actually entertained by this discussion.
You also haven't proven that the hate is misguided or dispelled the notion that Bonner is anything but a mediocre player.

I don't care to prove the hate is misguided.

I think it's hilarious that nobody can really justify their own hate for Bonner.

I've also never entertained the notion that Bonner is better than mediocre.

So he did choke in the playoffs.

Not by any definition of choke that I know.

Sure it is.

It's nothing but hate on your part, imo.

In the previous post:

09-10 39% 37%

so you are talking about the 2% drop during the playoffs from the regular season.

such choking has never been seen in the history of choking

You don't need to apologize for him. He's what he is: a mediocre player.

Such extreme hate on this board for a rather average/mediocre player.

Already explained earlier in the thread:

Fact is, he was left wide open to take shots as the series wore on, and he either clanked them or passed them up. Watch the games.

I did. Which two or three shots exactly did he miss that you believe would have swayed the series in favor of the Spurs?

That I'm not trying to convince you doesn't mean that this topic doesn't amuse me. It's actually a great way to re-hash that dude's mediocre game and vent about it.
You're far from the first guy I have an argument with about this. Sorry.

No apology necessary.

Keeping on venting about a guy you really don't have much reason to hate on. It's good stuff.

Okay.

k.

[Blake]

Strawman alert...

it might be a bit of a leading question, but it's a question, not an argument.

thus the question mark at the end of the question.