MJ and Kobe vs. Shaq and Duncan

[joshdaboss]

A better debate would be LeBron/Jordan or Duncan/Shaq. Kobe s it up for Jordan.

[Dr House]

You prefer to curl up with a sci-fi movie over being outdoors. You put too much ketchup on your food. You fight with your sister who's 10 years younger than you. Your mom still does your laundry.

Close?

God your gotry knows no bounds

[Phillip]

like the 10 fake all defensive teams kobe achieve on reputation? lol media fabricated d-team selections

he didnt deserve all of those 1st team selections for sure, but he definitely deserved quite a few of them.

and lets not kid ourselves, when Kobe puts forth full effort on defense, he still is as tough as most any perimeter defender out there.

[rmt]

It would be much easier to build around Shaq/Duncan. Get a few quality defenders who can hit the 3pter (Bowen, Battier-types) - much cheaper than getting quality big men for the MJ/Kobe duo. The role players would have open shots galore with Shaq/TD (who would have to be double-teamed) in the paint.

And would Kobe's ego be able to take playing second banana to MJ? He couldn't take it with Shaq - it'd be much worse with MJ - especially since they play the same position.

[Koolaid_Man]

It would be much easier to build around Shaq/Duncan. Get a few quality defenders who can hit the 3pter (Bowen, Battier-types) - much cheaper than getting quality big men for the MJ/Kobe duo. The role players would have open shots galore with Shaq/TD (who would have to be double-teamed) in the paint.

And would Kobe's ego be able to take playing second banana to MJ? He couldn't take it with Shaq - it'd be much worse with MJ - especially since they play the same position.

if MJ couldn't stop Kobe on the defensive side of the ball then why should Kobe play 2nd banana...MJ could mind a lot of players but isn't one of them. Kobe would have kicked MJ's ass...MJ wouldn't have punched Kobe in the eye like he did Kerr...

we're not talking les here we're talking talents...Kobe is a more pure scorer than MJ with better range...Where MJ beats Kobe is midrange that's it...Kobe would take a back seat to no one...If he didn't do it for Shaq - arguably the biggest dude to ever play the game what makes you think he'd do it for MJ...

[Phillip]

if MJ couldn't stop Kobe on the defensive side of the ball then why should Kobe play 2nd banana...MJ could mind a lot of players but isn't one of them. Kobe would have kicked MJ's ass...MJ wouldn't have punched Kobe in the eye like he did Kerr...

we're not talking les here we're talking talents...Kobe is a more pure scorer than MJ with better range...Where MJ beats Kobe is midrange that's it...Kobe would take a back seat to no one...If he didn't do it for Shaq - arguably the biggest dude to ever play the game what makes you think he'd do it for MJ...

I think there is a better chance Kobe takes backseat to MJ than MJ takes backseat to Kobe, honestly. And actually, Kobe's skillsets (shooting ability in particular) makes him a better candidate to play off MJ more often than MJ playing off of Kobe.

Kobe may be more skilled than MJ, but make no mistake, he doesnt use those skills like he should. There is no reason Kobe should not be a more efficient offensive player than MJ, when looking at his skillset, but Kobe obviously has a love of forcing bad shots. MJ always had a much smarter shot selection, and to discredit that part of MJs game is ridiculous. It's the same reason JR Smith isn't a superstar, even though he has all the skills of a superstar-type player. If he had the brains of a superstar, he would actually be one, instead of a cheap imitation like he is. Of course, you are going to be a moron and take this as me trying to take a shot at Kobe and put him down or something stupid like that, so I don't expect to see any sort of logical reply to this in return.

But in the end, neither would neccesarily take a backseat to the other, as opposed to being 1a and 1b. Both players hate losing like nothing else, and will do what it takes to win. Also both players have been in situations where they were willing to take a lesser role to win (MJ on the Dream Team, Kobe with Shaq). MJ's sample size is obviously limited, but I think Kobe most definitely would be willing to give up a little of his own, if its letting someone like MJ take a few away, with the goal of winning in mind. I dont think there would be a problem, unless they were frequently losing games that they should be winning.

[Axe Murderer]

good post phillip

[Koolaid_Man]

I think there is a better chance Kobe takes backseat to MJ than MJ takes backseat to Kobe, honestly. And actually, Kobe's skillsets (shooting ability in particular) makes him a better candidate to play off MJ more often than MJ playing off of Kobe.

Kobe may be more skilled than MJ, but make no mistake, he doesnt use those skills like he should. There is no reason Kobe should not be a more efficient offensive player than MJ, when looking at his skillset, but Kobe obviously has a love of forcing bad shots. MJ always had a much smarter shot selection, and to discredit that part of MJs game is ridiculous. It's the same reason JR Smith isn't a superstar, even though he has all the skills of a superstar-type player. If he had the brains of a superstar, he would actually be one, instead of a cheap imitation like he is. Of course, you are going to be a moron and take this as me trying to take a shot at Kobe and put him down or something stupid like that, so I don't expect to see any sort of logical reply to this in return.

But in the end, neither would neccesarily take a backseat to the other, as opposed to being 1a and 1b. Both players hate losing like nothing else, and will do what it takes to win. Also both players have been in situations where they were willing to take a lesser role to win (MJ on the Dream Team, Kobe with Shaq). MJ's sample size is obviously limited, but I think Kobe most definitely would be willing to give up a little of his own, if its letting someone like MJ take a few away, with the goal of winning in mind. I dont think there would be a problem, unless they were frequently losing games that they should be winning.

I agree with your post..but let me just say that even Phil said that Kobe was asked to do much more than MJ ever was...Alll MJ had to do was score and defend...Kobe's asked to score, facilitate, and defend. MJ's always had great defensive players and plenty of great shooters whereas Kobe played with a dominant albeit lazy ass center. I think you'd have a situation where both would respect each others game...and I can see fighting taking place...MJ never hit Pippen because he knew Pippen wouldn't hit back. Pip was weak mentally so he played his role to a tee...You right though they'd both feed of each other and in my opinion their mindset alone or collectively would run a Shaq / Duncan led team out the gym...Shaq and Duncan couldn't hold a candle to MJ / Kobe physically or mentally...MJ and Kobe have a psychotic desire to win...Tim and Shaq wouldn't want it as bad...

[Phillip]

It would be much easier to build around Shaq/Duncan. Get a few quality defenders who can hit the 3pter (Bowen, Battier-types) - much cheaper than getting quality big men for the MJ/Kobe duo. The role players would have open shots galore with Shaq/TD (who would have to be double-teamed) in the paint.

They would be deadly, but I'm still not sure if I want to be relying on role players to carry the team in the crunch, which is exactly what will happen, once the opposing team starts swarming the paint and playing passing lanes. The lack of offensive versatility will ultimately be their downfall. It's the reason Orlando with Dwight hasnt been able to get a championship yet. Once they start swarming him, problems arise, because the offense becomes so hit-or-miss with relying on role players to basically win from the 3pt line.

I think MJ/Kobe's versatile ability to make the game easy for teammates will be more effective down the stretch than Shaq/Duncans, because they not only can make you pay with dishing to the perimeter from the paint, but can also get very easy buckets for their big men cutting. Look how often Pau Gasol is able to get easy layups and dunks in the clutch, thanks to Kobe being able to draw attention on his drives. IMO, it would be a lot harder for Duncan and Shaq to be able to do that for each other.

[Phillip]

I agree with your post..but let me just say that even Phil said that Kobe was asked to do much more than MJ ever was...Alll MJ had to do was score and defend...Kobe's asked to score, facilitate, and defend. MJ's always had great defensive players and plenty of great shooters whereas Kobe played with a dominant albeit lazy ass center. I think you'd have a situation where both would respect each others game...and I can see fighting taking place...MJ never hit Pippen because he knew Pippen wouldn't hit back. Pip was weak mentally so he played his role to a tee...You right though they'd both feed of each other and in my opinion their mindset alone or collectively would run a Shaq / Duncan led team out the gym...Shaq and Duncan couldn't hold a candle to MJ / Kobe physically or mentally...MJ and Kobe have a psychotic desire to win...Tim and Shaq wouldn't want it as bad...

Kobe never played with great shooters, or great defensive players? I'd say he has played with his share of shooters (Fisher, Horry, Fox were all very capable 3pt shooters), as well as defenders (Fox, Artest, Ariza, Bynum). MJ had done his share of faciliating as well, although the Bulls style of offense was ran a little differently than the Lakers. He worked heavily in the high-post, while Kobe would set up Gasol for easy buckets. MJ didn't have a player like Gasol to set up, so a lot more offense was simply ran through him, instead of being ran by him. But to say he was not capable of facilitating is crap as well. There was a stretch late in the 88-89 season where they began using MJ as the PG, and he put up 12 triple doubles in that stretch, and had 18 games of 10+ assists.

[ElNono]

Phillip

[mavsfan1000]

MJ>>>Kobe Shaq>Duncan. That has been pretty established imo.

[Koolaid_Man]

Kobe never played with great shooters, or great defensive players? I'd say he has played with his share of shooters (Fisher, Horry, Fox were all very capable 3pt shooters), as well as defenders (Fox, Artest, Ariza, Bynum). MJ had done his share of faciliating as well, although the Bulls style of offense was ran a little differently than the Lakers. He worked heavily in the high-post, while Kobe would set up Gasol for easy buckets. MJ didn't have a player like Gasol to set up, so a lot more offense was simply ran through him, instead of being ran by him. But to say he was not capable of facilitating is crap as well. There was a stretch late in the 88-89 season where they began using MJ as the PG, and he put up 12 triple doubles in that stretch, and had 18 games of 10+ assists.

I've just finished my lunch. I grilled up some fresh tuna, blackened it, and made me a tuna sandwhich with a nice bow tie pasta salad. Guess I'm gonna have to eat some more...

U ready...

Nope Kobe's never had great 3 pt shooters but they were decent. But not as great or prolific as MJ's shooters.

Fisher .375 career vs Craig Hodges .400
Horry .341 career vs Steve Kerr .454
Fox .349 career vs Paxson .355

These percentage delta's in favor of MJ's team can be the difference between 5 and 6 les.

Dennis Rodman, Ron Harper, Scottie Pippen, Charles Oakley, and Horace Grant.

Are you ing kidding me. Comparing Rick Fox, a Ron Artest past his prime, a Trevor Ariza we had for basically one year, AND a glass knees Bynum....comparing these guys to MJ's defensive cast is insane.

According to Phil he didn't ask MJ to do the things he's asked of Kobe. Why? Because MJ's team's overall were mentally stronger and better equipped. MJ didn't have to baby sit to the degree that Kobe does.

MJ played in the high post has zero to do with Kobe's use of Pau. MJ also played very well at low post and was even better in the mid post. Kobe does most of his work in the high post as well...and unfortunately the main reason Gasol is usually in the high post is because he can't keep position in the low post. He gets pushed out of position by guards and small fowards.

MJ setup his small forward Pippen in the high post all the time. Why? Because thats where the 4 usually operates. Pippen was way more fluid than Gasol, so are argument that you probably thought was on point is wrong as .

Fact is I'm right ad usual Kobe was asked to do way more than MJ not my words but Phil's.
Next time you try to raise up to challenge me bring ya A game son.

[Phillip]

I've just finished my lunch. I grilled up some fresh tuna, blackened it, and made me a tuna sandwhich with a nice bow tie pasta salad. Guess I'm gonna have to eat some more...

U ready...

Nope Kobe's never had great 3 pt shooters but they were decent. But not as great or prolific as MJ's shooters.

Fisher .375 career vs Craig Hodges .400
Horry .341 career vs Steve Kerr .454
Fox .349 career vs Paxson .355

These percentage delta's in favor of MJ's team can be the difference between 5 and 6 les.

Dennis Rodman, Ron Harper, Scottie Pippen, Charles Oakley, and Horace Grant.

Are you ing kidding me. Comparing Rick Fox, a Ron Artest past his prime, a Trevor Ariza we had for basically one year, AND a glass knees Bynum....comparing these guys to MJ's defensive cast is insane.

According to Phil he didn't ask MJ to do the things he's asked of Kobe. Why? Because MJ's team's overall were mentally stronger and better equipped. MJ didn't have to baby sit to the degree that Kobe does.

MJ played in the high post has zero to do with Kobe's use of Pau. MJ also played very well at low post and was even better in the mid post. Kobe does most of his work in the high post as well...and unfortunately the main reason Gasol is usually in the high post is because he can't keep position in the low post. He gets pushed out of position by guards and small fowards.

MJ setup his small forward Pippen in the high post all the time. Why? Because thats where the 4 usually operates. Pippen was way more fluid than Gasol, so are argument that you probably thought was on point is wrong as .

Fact is I'm right ad usual Kobe was asked to do way more than MJ not my words but Phil's.
Next time you try to raise up to challenge me bring ya A game son.

You claimed Kobe had no shooters or defenders. He definitely did. They might not have been amazing, but they got the job done. And the fact that he had the Big Diesel to dish easy assists to is something MJ never had the luxury of. He also never had a hardcore bigman in the middle like Bynum (even if he misses half the season, he was there for two le runs in the playoffs) on the defensive end.

Point is, both players had their share of help in different areas. Your idea that 3pt% is the difference between 5 and 6 les is ridiculous because of this fact. It could easily be said that having a big man to get 20+ easy points a game out of, was the difference between 6 les and 10 les for MJ. Worthless point in the end.

Your other claims are just full of re ed bias and knobslobbing of Kobe, so I'm not going to waste my time replying any further to them. Idiots like you are the #1 reason so many people hate on Kobe, not because of Kobe himself. If he didn't have fans like yourself, he would be every bit as loved as MJ. Blame yourself for the unfair hate that he gets.

[Axe Murderer]

[Nathan89]

I've just finished my lunch. I grilled up some fresh tuna, blackened it, and made me a tuna sandwhich with a nice bow tie pasta salad. Guess I'm gonna have to eat some more...

U ready...

Nope Kobe's never had great 3 pt shooters but they were decent. But not as great or prolific as MJ's shooters.

Fisher .375 career vs Craig Hodges .400
Horry .341 career vs Steve Kerr .454
Fox .349 career vs Paxson .355

These percentage delta's in favor of MJ's team can be the difference between 5 and 6 les.

Dennis Rodman, Ron Harper, Scottie Pippen, Charles Oakley, and Horace Grant.

Are you ing kidding me. Comparing Rick Fox, a Ron Artest past his prime, a Trevor Ariza we had for basically one year, AND a glass knees Bynum....comparing these guys to MJ's defensive cast is insane.

According to Phil he didn't ask MJ to do the things he's asked of Kobe. Why? Because MJ's team's overall were mentally stronger and better equipped. MJ didn't have to baby sit to the degree that Kobe does.

MJ played in the high post has zero to do with Kobe's use of Pau. MJ also played very well at low post and was even better in the mid post. Kobe does most of his work in the high post as well...and unfortunately the main reason Gasol is usually in the high post is because he can't keep position in the low post. He gets pushed out of position by guards and small fowards.

MJ setup his small forward Pippen in the high post all the time. Why? Because thats where the 4 usually operates. Pippen was way more fluid than Gasol, so are argument that you probably thought was on point is wrong as .

Fact is I'm right ad usual Kobe was asked to do way more than MJ not my words but Phil's.
Next time you try to raise up to challenge me bring ya A game son.

6 for 24 doesn't win the game unless you have teammates to carry you.

37% shooting throughout the 2000 finals basically means you didn't contribute.

[Koolaid_Man]

You claimed Kobe had no shooters or defenders. He definitely did. They might not have been amazing, but they got the job done. And the fact that he had the Big Diesel to dish easy assists to is something MJ never had the luxury of. He also never had a hardcore bigman in the middle like Bynum (even if he misses half the season, he was there for two le runs in the playoffs) on the defensive end.

Point is, both players had their share of help in different areas. Your idea that 3pt% is the difference between 5 and 6 les is ridiculous because of this fact. It could easily be said that having a big man to get 20+ easy points a game out of, was the difference between 6 les and 10 les for MJ. Worthless point in the end.

Your other claims are just full of re ed bias and knobslobbing of Kobe, so I'm not going to waste my time replying any further to them. Idiots like you are the #1 reason so many people hate on Kobe, not because of Kobe himself. If he didn't have fans like yourself, he would be every bit as loved as MJ. Blame yourself for the unfair hate that he gets.

MJ had Pippen who's one of the 50'st greatest players...plus better shooters and defenders than Kobe. All you've done is give me more meaningless drivel by pettifogging the issue.

You Can't Handle The Truth.

[Phillip]

MJ had Pippen who's one of the 50'st greatest players...plus better shooters and defenders than Kobe. All you've done is give me more meaningless drivel by pettifogging the issue.

You Can't Handle The Truth.

[Leetonidas]

MJ had Pippen who's one of the 50'st greatest players...plus better shooters and defenders than Kobe. All you've done is give me more meaningless drivel by pettifogging the issue.

You Can't Handle The Truth.

Shaquille O'Neal