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  1. #76
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    No, he's pointing out that the way tax rates are tiered, everybody pay the same rate on the scale.

    If you make up to $X then you pay rate A.
    If you exceed $X but not $Y, then you pay rate B, which is equal to rate A + given percentage.

    As he stated it ("pays exactly the same rate on the first $15,000 they make") it's correct.
    That's not what I mean and you know it smartass. A tax payer is already paying more in taxes at the same percentage. Why should the percentage also increase? I am also not in favor of rewarding people for having more children. Exemptions should go away.


  2. #77
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    Why Taxes Will Rise in the End

    By DAVID LEONHARDT

    WASHINGTON

    Polls show that most Americans are opposed to raising the federal debt ceiling. Even when the Pew Research Center included the consequences in its question — a national default that would damage the economy — slightly more people were against raising the ceiling than were for it.

    How could this be? Above all, I think it reflects a desire to return to the good old days. Not so long ago, nobody was talking about tax increases or Medicare cuts, and the federal budget seemed to be in fine shape. If only we could get back to the past — get spending under control, as the cliché goes — we’d be O.K. The debt ceiling, with its harsh finality, offers the chance.

    Unfortunately, this nostalgic view depends on a misunderstanding of the budget. It imagines a budget in which the United States indefinitely has the world’s highest medical costs, its largest military, an aging population and, nonetheless, taxes that are among the world’s lowest. Economists have a name for that combination: a free lunch.

    Free lunchism is ultimately the problem with the no-new-taxes pledge that so many politicians have adopted. A refusal to raise taxes, no matter how principled, cannot take us back to the good old days. It would instead lead to a very different American society. For taxes to remain where they are, Washington would need to end Medicare as we know it, end Social Security as we know it, severely shrink the military — or do some combination of the above.

    “We cannot repeat the past when it comes to the federal budget,” Douglas Elmendorf, director of the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office, recently wrote. “The aging of our population and the rising cost of health care have changed the backdrop for federal budget policy in a fundamental way.”

    The most important part of the recent Republican budget plan, written by Representative Paul Ryan, was that it acknowledged this reality (in its details, if not its packaging). It called for no tax increases. To make the numbers come close to adding up, the plan also called for eliminating the current Medicare and replacing it with a system in which the elderly would buy less generous private insurance plans. Such is the price of no new taxes.

    Early indications are that Americans don’t like Mr. Ryan’s plan all that much. In upstate New York this spring, a Democrat won a typically Republican House district by campaigning relentlessly against the plan. National polls show huge majorities favor keeping Medicare and Social Security in something approaching their current form — much larger majorities, tellingly, than oppose an increase in the debt ceiling.

    In the near term, Congressional Republicans have decided to play down the Ryan plan. Most continue to oppose new taxes, without going so far as to explain the consequences. They will have little trouble sticking to that position through the current debt ceiling fight, because the deficit does not need to be solved immediately.

    Eventually, though, drawing up a credible deficit plan with neither Ryan-like cuts nor higher taxes will be impossible. And you can already see the start of a potential Republican compromise.

    It revolves around raising taxes, on net, by shrinking corporate or individual loopholes. The country’s highest-ranking Republican, John Boehner, the speaker of the House, signaled his openness to such a deal last week. (Mr. Boehner abandoned the deal under pressure from Representative Eric Cantor, the No. 2 House Republican and a Tea Party ally.)

    Stalwart Republican economists — like Martin Feldstein, a chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers under Ronald Reagan, and Gregory Mankiw, who held the same job under George W. Bush — also favor raising taxes by closing loopholes. So did most of the Republicans from the bipartisan Simpson-Bowles deficit commission, including Senator Tom Coburn of Oklahoma, Senator Mike Crapo of Idaho, former Senator Judd Gregg of New Hampshire and David Cote, the chief executive of Honeywell.

    One obvious compromise along these lines would follow the outline sketched out by the Simpson-Bowles plan. Marginal tax rates could actually fall. But the closing of loopholes would more than make up for the loss in revenue from lower tax rates.

    Conservatives might accept the deal, partly because it would satisfy their longtime desire for a simpler tax code with lower rates and partly because spending cuts would still make up the bulk of any deal. Liberals might accept the deal because tax loopholes disproportionately benefit the wealthy, and a simpler code — even one with lower rates — could be more progressive.

    The mortgage interest deduction, for example, saves more than $5,000 a year for the typical household in the top 1 percent of earners. Most middle-income households don’t benefit from the deduction at all, because they instead claim the standard income tax deduction. And the mortgage deduction is the second-largest tax break for individuals, costing about $80 billion a year, more than the budgets for the Education Department and Justice Department combined.

    Yet despite all the substantive arguments for such plans, I still wonder whether one of them is the most likely outcome.

    The truth is, closing loopholes has much stronger support among economists and columnists than it does among voters. Only 23 percent of Americans benefit from the mortgage deduction, but 93 percent support it. Other big breaks, like the exclusions for health insurance and 401(k) contributions, are popular, too. On the corporate side, Eric Toder of the Urban Ins ute has pointed out that the biggest breaks also tend to be popular, like the credit for research and development.

    So what kind of tax increases do Americans support? The old-fashioned kind. Seventy-two percent support raising taxes on income above $250,000, according to a recent New York Times/CBS poll, and a large majority likewise favor raising Social Security taxes on the affluent.

    In the end, the most likely tax increase may be the one that’s already on the books. On Jan. 1, 2013, all the Bush tax cuts — on the affluent and nonaffluent alike — are set to expire, which would solve roughly one-quarter of our long-term deficit problem. If Republicans have their way, all the tax cuts will be extended. If the Democrats have their way, most of them will be.

    But if the two parties each control a branch of government after the 2012 elections, neither may be able to get their way. Instead, they would have to compromise — or a stalemate would cause the Bush tax cuts to disappear. After the last few days, a stalemate doesn’t seem like such a bad bet.

    E-mail: [email protected]; twitter.com/DLeonhardt

  3. #78
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Those rates look higher than they are in many or most cases. So many people making middle class wages and above have serious write-offs at times. Lets remove these. If people have money, they shouldn't need tax breaks for buying houses and other things of wealth. They are going to do it anyway.

    Here is the previous chart and another with a flat tax implemented. I placed the flat tax to start at minimum wage x 2080 hours.




  4. #79
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    Let's just make it simple. tax = (income-poverty line) X (rate)

    Seems like that would be a fair balance between the flat taxers and the progressive taxers. Stuck down around the poverty line? Very little of your income is subject to taxation. Way above the poverty line? Essentially all of your income gets taxed. Rate of taxation above poverty stays the same for everyone.

    No separate capital gains rate. Warren Buffett can pay the same rate on his dividends that his secretary pays on her wages.

    Very, very few deductions. Off the top of my head, charitable contributions and deductions for certain disabilities I'd definitely want to keep. Everything else, including the mortgage interest deduction, goes away. The simpler the tax code, the fewer loopholes that can be exploited.

  5. #80
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Let's just make it simple. tax = (income-poverty line) X (rate)

    Seems like that would be a fair balance between the flat taxers and the progressive taxers. Stuck down around the poverty line? Very little of your income is subject to taxation. Way above the poverty line? Essentially all of your income gets taxed. Rate of taxation above poverty stays the same for everyone.

    No separate capital gains rate. Warren Buffett can pay the same rate on his dividends that his secretary pays on her wages.

    Very, very few deductions. Off the top of my head, charitable contributions and deductions for certain disabilities I'd definitely want to keep. Everything else, including the mortgage interest deduction, goes away. The simpler the tax code, the fewer loopholes that can be exploited.
    I agree with using your formula. That is what I did, though I used annual minimum wage working full time rather than the poverty line.

    Unless things have changed, the poverty line is a percentage of average income, and not an actual line where things get rough.

    I used the 17% number because that is what was being floated around for a flat rate back in 1992 as a viable number. I like a single tax bracket because then when people say they are for or against a tax hike, it takes the at ude "It doesn't affect me" out of the equation for so many more people.

  6. #81
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    The poverty line for the 48 contiguous for 2010 is $10,830 +$3,740 per additional person.

    2 $14,570
    3 $18,310
    4 $22,050
    5 $25,790
    6 $29,530
    7 $33,270
    8 $37,010

    My using annual minimum wage would be $15,080. Again, I don't think people should be rewarded with a tax break for children.
    Last edited by Wild Cobra; 07-13-2011 at 04:45 PM.

  7. #82
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    Nice, who doesn't love a good "raise taxes for everyone making less than $40k and lower them for everyone making over $40k" (not adjusted for marriage status or number of kids) plan?

    Since you think this is a good plan, why don't you also calculate the resulting federal tax revenue and present a budget of what you'd cut to be in balance given that level of revenue.

    We'll all wait patiently.

  8. #83
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Nice, who doesn't love a good "raise taxes for everyone making less than $40k and lower them for everyone making over $40k" (not adjusted for marriage status or number of kids) plan?

    Since you think this is a good plan, why don't you also calculate the resulting federal tax revenue and present a budget of what you'd cut to be in balance given that level of revenue.

    We'll all wait patiently.
    The free ride needs to end sometime.

    Think about how many people there are making less than that $40k who have no tax deductions other than exemptions, and think about how many people above $40k have deductibles that i am saying we take away.

    Very few people in the $40k+ area end up paying that much after tax deduction.

    On top of that, where it really starts splitting from the rich, at about $150k... there are so few people as a percentage to make any difference trying to get more from them.

    If we want more tax revenue, you have to look at getting more tax payers, and hitting the middle class harder. That's where the money is.

    Again, the percentage of rich people is too small to make a dent by raising their taxes.

  9. #84
    Veteran scott's Avatar
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    I think you misunderstood. I didn't want your thoughts based on your "life experiences", I want calculations. Get to it.

    I'll start for you. To make up the loss in tax revenue from one person making $400,000 people in your example, it would take approximately 153 people making $17,000/yr. TO make up for the loss in tax revenue for one person making $10,000,000 year, it would take approximately 3,900 people making $17,000/yr.

    Your turn.

  10. #85
    keep asking questions George Gervin's Afro's Avatar
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    The free ride needs to end sometime.

    Think about how many people there are making less than that $40k who have no tax deductions other than exemptions, and think about how many people above $40k have deductibles that i am saying we take away.

    Very few people in the $40k+ area end up paying that much after tax deduction.

    On top of that, where it really starts splitting from the rich, at about $150k... there are so few people as a percentage to make any difference trying to get more from them.

    If we want more tax revenue, you have to look at getting more tax payers, and hitting the middle class harder. That's where the money is.

    Again, the percentage of rich people is too small to make a dent by raising their taxes.

    but it will make a dent in the deficit..

  11. #86
    keep asking questions George Gervin's Afro's Avatar
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    I think you misunderstood. I didn't want your thoughts based on your "life experiences", I want calculations. Get to it.

    I'll start for you. To make up the loss in tax revenue from one person making $400,000 people in your example, it would take approximately 153 people making $17,000/yr. TO make up for the loss in tax revenue for one person making $10,000,000 year, it would take approximately 3,900 people making $17,000/yr.

    Your turn.
    he actually created more tax payers..of course it took creating (by your numbers) 3,900 to make up for the tax breaks on someone making 10,000,000 a year. great for the economy..

  12. #87
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    I think you misunderstood. I didn't want your thoughts based on your "life experiences", I want calculations. Get to it.

    I'll start for you. To make up the loss in tax revenue from one person making $400,000 people in your example, it would take approximately 153 people making $17,000/yr. TO make up for the loss in tax revenue for one person making $10,000,000 year, it would take approximately 3,900 people making $17,000/yr.

    Your turn.
    How about making sense first. How many families making $400k have a taxable income remotely close to that number? After all their deductions, the average probably has about $300k taxable.

    Which category do you want to look at? I will assume you mean married, joint return with 2 kids.

    $17,000 wage earner? Single earner would be zero tax still if both parents worked and made under the $15,080 each. Both parents could work up to a combined income of $30,160 and pay no taxes if they each had full time minimum wage jobs. I am only figuring on taxing a wage earner above $15,080. Not the family.

    If a single breadwinner in each case, a stupid family of four with no deductibles will pay about $114,371 in taxes. Under the 17% flat tax, would pay $65,436. A reduction of $48,935. A single wage earner at $17k, family of 4, would pay $326.40 instead of $0. Yes, it would take close to your number of 153 (149.92) to make up the loss. However, I'll bet only 1 in 10,000 people making $400k+ have no additional deduction to reduce their taxable income.

    If we can assume they write off 25% of their income, the loss changes to only $2,765. It only takes 8.47 of your $17k wage earners to make up for that.

    Remember, when we hear of the rich, don't they normally only pay about 12% of their income in taxes? Above $400k, my idea has them paying at least 16.36%.

  13. #88
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    Tax Evasion Costs The U.S. $400B To $500B Annually

    http://onespot.wsj.com/taxes/2011/07...s-400b-to-500b

  14. #89
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    Well, the example I was using involved $12,000 left over after 35% income tax had been removed from the paycheck to make the $17K salary from Wall-Mart be taxed at the same rate that a guy making $1Million a year makes.

    Look, when I was in graduate school I lived on less than $6K a year that I was paid for being a graduate assistant, and owed no money to anyone. Those times are gone!! To expect someone to raise a family or live themselves on less than 1K per month is simply ignoring the realities of America today.
    I graduated from law school a little over three years ago. I did not incur one penny of debt. My wife and I lived in one of the worst parts of town and we lived very poorly. She worked, I went to school. Despite being well compensated during the summers, I was never tempted to purchase a new car or move to a better home. During the summer, I worked and saved money. Those times are not gone. If I can do it, anyone can.

    Why do you see yourself as being punished? I have never understood that sentiment...I see your position as simply a different sense of en lement. You feel that you are en led to every dime you earn, and that someone else's good fortune is a loss to you. I don't see the world as a 'zero-sum' game.
    Asking me to pay a different amount than my fellow citizens is a penalty as far as I am concerned. If I choose to give more, then that should be my choice, I should not be compelled. If I decide not to pay, I get penalized, fined and possibly thrown in jail.

    I work for my money, of course I should be en led to it. I certainly would not stop you from paying extra to the government if you feel so inclined. I personally would rather be able to keep my money and donate the excess to charities that I know and trust. Then I can see for myself that it is someone else's good fortunes. This would not be a loss to me. However, seeing how our governments at the local, state and federal level waste money, I don't feel rosey and confident knowing that it is going to a good place.

    If you really believe that everything you have is in no way tied to the benefits of living in this great country, that you owe nothing back to this country other than roads and military, or that you have the right, because of a high income level, to pick and choose which taxes you consider worthwhile paying, I believe that reflects a very sad perception of citizenship in a democracy.

    I choose not to have your worldview.
    Your understanding of my opinion is wrong. I believe that I should pay my taxes and that I have a duty to do so. But I think that everyone should pay taxes, especially income tax. Do they all have to pay my percentage, no, but most Americans pay no income tax, why should I pay 35%? If you have no problem handing checks to your government without worry about how it is spent, I congratulate you and have no worry about your worldview. I feel differently.

  15. #90
    Veteran vy65's Avatar
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    Why do you see yourself as being punished? I have never understood that sentiment...I see your position as simply a different sense of en lement. You feel that you are en led to every dime you earn, and that someone else's good fortune is a loss to you. I don't see the world as a 'zero-sum' game.
    The punishment is being compelled to subsidize another person's livelihood with the dollars and cents you, individually, amassed via hard work. Your absolutely right to call it en lement -- but -- what's the problem with being en led to income you earn from working?

    If you really believe that everything you have is in no way tied to the benefits of living in this great country, that you owe nothing back to this country other than roads and military, or that you have the right, because of a high income level, to pick and choose which taxes you consider worthwhile paying, I believe that reflects a very sad perception of citizenship in a democracy.

    I choose not to have your worldview.
    I don't think anyone here is advocating that those in the top bracket not pay anything. Nor is anyone saying that they ought to have the right to cherry-pick which tax burdens to shoulder. This little diatribe is simple histrionics.

  16. #91
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    Let's just make it simple. tax = (income-poverty line) X (rate)

    Seems like that would be a fair balance between the flat taxers and the progressive taxers. Stuck down around the poverty line? Very little of your income is subject to taxation. Way above the poverty line? Essentially all of your income gets taxed. Rate of taxation above poverty stays the same for everyone.

    No separate capital gains rate. Warren Buffett can pay the same rate on his dividends that his secretary pays on her wages.

    Very, very few deductions. Off the top of my head, charitable contributions and deductions for certain disabilities I'd definitely want to keep. Everything else, including the mortgage interest deduction, goes away. The simpler the tax code, the fewer loopholes that can be exploited.
    This I can live with. Too many people want to assume the very worst for reasons why people cannot afford to pay income tax. Single parent working at walmart with two kids living off of 1,000.00 a month.

    What people don't seem to care about is the countless stories of people who reject promotion because they would lose the ability to live in section 8 housing, people who get paid as much to collect an unemployment check as they would get paid to have a job, people who purchase their groceries with food stamps and then lottery tickets with cash.

    This didn't have much to do with your comment but I agree that we could simplify the tax code, reduce deductions and incorporate an income tax that would have most American's contribting in some way to our federal government. I don't see this as heartless, I see this as the only way our government prevents becoming Italy.

  17. #92
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    What people don't seem to care about is the countless stories of people who reject promotion because they would lose the ability to live in section 8 housing, people who get paid as much to collect an unemployment check as they would get paid to have a job, people who purchase their groceries with food stamps and then lottery tickets with cash.
    LOL...

    I recently rejected a promotion at work because it would have changed my days off, and I would have lost my Sunday premium pay and night differential. The promotion would have been a demotion of pay!

    Besides... Who wants to work day shift in the summer?

  18. #93
    Veteran scott's Avatar
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    How about making sense first. How many families making $400k have a taxable income remotely close to that number? After all their deductions, the average probably has about $300k taxable.
    It's using your chart, with your assumptions. Don't change them now that they don't work for you.


    Which category do you want to look at? I will assume you mean married, joint return with 2 kids.

    $17,000 wage earner? Single earner would be zero tax still if both parents worked and made under the $15,080 each. Both parents could work up to a combined income of $30,160 and pay no taxes if they each had full time minimum wage jobs. I am only figuring on taxing a wage earner above $15,080. Not the family.

    If a single breadwinner in each case, a stupid family of four with no deductibles will pay about $114,371 in taxes. Under the 17% flat tax, would pay $65,436. A reduction of $48,935. A single wage earner at $17k, family of 4, would pay $326.40 instead of $0. Yes, it would take close to your number of 153 (149.92) to make up the loss. However, I'll bet only 1 in 10,000 people making $400k+ have no additional deduction to reduce their taxable income.

    If we can assume they write off 25% of their income, the loss changes to only $2,765. It only takes 8.47 of your $17k wage earners to make up for that.

    Remember, when we hear of the rich, don't they normally only pay about 12% of their income in taxes? Above $400k, my idea has them paying at least 16.36%.
    I was using single, since you said do away with marriage and children exemptions. (Which I also used in my post previous to the last one).

    The rest of your post is conjecture and nonsense. Real numbers with real calculations please.

  19. #94
    Veteran scott's Avatar
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    Hint: when you are using phrases like "I bet..." and "If we can assume...", you are faililng.

  20. #95
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    It's using your chart, with your assumptions. Don't change them now that they don't work for you.
    I'm not. I already mentioned the difference between tax deductions and not using them under a revised tax system.
    I was using single, since you said do away with marriage and children exemptions. (Which I also used in my post previous to the last one).
    Well, a single person earning $17k would have their taxes go from $765 to $326.40. How are they going to make up for the loss you assume?
    The rest of your post is conjecture and nonsense. Real numbers with real calculations please.
    That can only be done on an individual basis. Averages are had to do.

    Try this. Take your last tax return and figure the difference. Subtract $15,080 from your earnings and multiply that by 17% for your owed taxes for 2010.

    Is it better or worse for you?

    If I take my wages looking only at the chart, I would expect to pay over $15k in federal tax. However, with the few write-offs I have, I pay just over $11k. I would pay more than $12k at the 17% flat rate.

  21. #96
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Hint: when you are using phrases like "I bet..." and "If we can assume...", you are faililng.
    Stop nit-picking asshole.

    I did mention the deductions. This just goes to prove too many people like you really don't understand how the tax system works. You can count on most people making decent incomes to pay well under the lines on the graph. Those lines represent the incomes with no additional deductions other than the standard deduction and exemptions.

    I made that clear from the start.

  22. #97
    Veteran scott's Avatar
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    I guess I'll do it for you.

    National Income: 14.6 T
    Labor Force: 153.4 Million
    Unemployed: 14.1 Million
    Employed: 139.3 Million
    WC Plan Exempt from Taxes: 139,300,000 * 15,080 = 2.1 T
    Income Subject To Taxes: $12.5T
    Federal Tax Revenue under WC Plan: (12.5T x. 0.17) = 2.13T
    2010 Estimated Federal Tax Revenue: 2.10T

    So, you've accomplished nothing other than shift the tax burden from those currently playing less than your flat tax scheme to those paying greater than your flat tax scheme. There might be a "fairness" arguement to be made if the people carrying the increased burden could afford it. Guess they should just work more hours at Wal-Mart.

  23. #98
    Veteran scott's Avatar
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    Stop nit-picking asshole.

    I did mention the deductions. This just goes to prove too many people like you really don't understand how the tax system works. You can count on most people making decent incomes to pay well under the lines on the graph. Those lines represent the incomes with no additional deductions other than the standard deduction and exemptions.

    I made that clear from the start.
    Stop being an obtuse dumb , obtuse dumb .

  24. #99
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    That's not what I mean and you know it
    I don't care what you mean/said. Frankly, reading about your fantasy world amounts to a waste of time.
    I was merely explaining that scott was correct in what he was pointing out, which seemed to escape you.

  25. #100
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    I guess I'll do it for you.
    You cannot make it that simple.
    National Income: 14.6 T
    Not all is individual tax, besides, it's $14.5082 T.
    Labor Force: 153.4 Million
    Unemployed: 14.1 Million
    Employed: 139.3 Million
    Maybe, I'll go along with that for now.
    WC Plan Exempt from Taxes: 139,300,000 * 15,080 = 2.1 T
    Bull .

    You cannot deduct the whole $15,080 for those making less than that number.
    Income Subject To Taxes: $12.5T
    Wrong again. I don't know the number subject to Individual tax collection, but that is definitely not it.

    2010 receipts are $2,162,724 million. Receipts from Individual Income tax was only $898,549 million.
    Federal Tax Revenue under WC Plan: (12.5T x. 0.17) = 2.13T
    2010 Estimated Federal Tax Revenue: 2.10T
    Not correct because you are not using a number that represents Individual Income.
    So, you've accomplished nothing other than shift the tax burden from those currently playing less than your flat tax scheme to those paying greater than your flat tax scheme. There might be a "fairness" arguement to be made if the people carrying the increased burden could afford it. Guess they should just work more hours at Wal-Mart.
    You again sir, have proven you have no understanding of taxes.

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