Can we actually talk basketball instead of krew fapping?

[Findog]

That's a ridiculous statement and you know it. Nobody was mistaking Tyson Chandler as the #1 on the team. A #1 option on the team means exactly that, he's the #1 scoring option. Defensively he can't be a complete liability, but name me one #1 since Bill Russell that hasn't been the team's go-to guy offensively in the clutch.

I never said Dwight or Dirk require another #1 beside them. What I did say is that both guys have their limitations: You can't run your O through Howard in crunch time. The Mavs are defensively deficient at one of their front court spots. Howard doesn't need Wade to win a le and Dirk didn't need a center like...well Dwight Howard to win his. What I am saying is that I think perimeter wing players that can create their own shot are easier to find than a defensive center of Tyson's caliber.

[Jose Canseco]

Defensively he can't be a complete liability, but name me one #1 since Bill Russell that hasn't been the team's go-to guy offensively in the clutch.

Assuming you mean championship teams...

Arguably Shaq. Still got touches in crunchtime, but when teams started to implement hack a Shaq more frequently and with Kobe coming into his own offensively, the ball was often in Kobe's hands.

Duncan through the evolution of those 2005 and beyond Spurs with Ginobili and sometimes Parker having the ball in their hands in crunchtime as opposed to Duncan.

Rip Hamilton on those mid 2000s Pistons teams. Offense ran through Rip 80% of the game and Billups was the closer.

[DeadlyDynasty]

I never said Dwight or Dirk require another #1 beside them. What I did say is that both guys have their limitations: You can't run your O through Howard in crunch time. The Mavs are defensively deficient at one of their front court spots. Howard doesn't need Wade to win a le and Dirk didn't need a center like...well Dwight Howard to win his. What I am saying is that I think perimeter wing players that can create their own shot are easier to find than a defensive center of Tyson's caliber.

How so? Dirk played championship-level defense. Come on bro, you know better.

[Monostradamus]

Assuming you mean championship teams...

Arguably Shaq. Still got touches in crunchtime, but when teams started to implement hack a Shaq more frequently and with Kobe coming into his own offensively, the ball was often in Kobe's hands.

Duncan through the evolution of those 2005 and beyond Spurs with Ginobili and sometimes Parker having the ball in their hands in crunchtime as opposed to Duncan.

Rip Hamilton on those mid 2000s Pistons teams. Offense ran through Rip 80% of the game and Billups was the closer.

I'm not talking about another guy taking crunch time shots. Jason Terry takes alot of crunch time shots too but it doesn't mean he's arguable the #1 on Dallas. Both Duncan and Shaq in their primes, when they were winning les, handled themselves plenty in crunch time as the #1 on the team. It wasn't until Shaq went to Miami that he wasn't in that role, but by then it wasn't even up for debate.

The 05 Pistons are an anomaly but even then almost nobody considered Rip to be the #1 on that team. There were unique in that they had no #1.

[Jose Canseco]

I'm not talking about another guy taking crunch time shots. Jason Terry takes alot of crunch time shots too but it doesn't mean he's arguable the #1 on Dallas. Both Duncan and Shaq in their primes, when they were winning les, handled themselves plenty in crunch time as the #1 on the team. It wasn't until Shaq went to Miami that he wasn't in that role, but by then it wasn't even up for debate.

The 05 Pistons are an anomaly but even then almost nobody considered Rip to be the #1 on that team. There were unique in that they had no #1.

Neither was I. I specifically was talking about having the ball in Kobe's and Ginobili's hands in crunchtime and them being the go-to guy whether by scoring or making decisions on who the ball would go to for scoring opportunities, not taking shots even though Shaq and Duncan were the team's #1s. And both Shaq and Duncan were still in their primes when that started to happen.

Fair point on the Pistons.

[Monostradamus]

Howard doesn't need Wade to win a le

You don't know that.

I think perimeter wing players that can create their own shot are easier to find than a defensive center of Tyson's caliber.

Well that's a argument because JR Smith is a perimeter wing who can create his own shot. So is Monta Ellis. Dwight Howard isn't winning with either of them.

How about an elite perimeter wing player who can create his own shot? In that case, I'd argue there's just as many elite defensive centers in the NBA as there are truly clutch perimeter players.

[Monostradamus]

Neither was I. I specifically was talking about having the ball in Kobe's and Ginobili's hands in crunchtime and them being the go-to guy whether by scoring or making decisions on who the ball would go to for scoring opportunities, not taking shots even though Shaq and Duncan were the team's #1s. And both Shaq and Duncan were still in their primes when that started to happen.

Well in that case there's no NBA player in history who ran every single clutch play for every moment for every one of the championships he won with his team.

[stretch]

I'd say Shaq and Duncan both were more than capable of still being the main guy to deliver points in the clutch. In Shaq's case, he had an unusual luxury of having a guy like Kobe at his side (a luxury probably no one in NBA history ever had), but in Duncan's case, it was more a result of defenses being so focused on Duncan, that it created much easier scoring chances for guys like Ginobili and Parker.

[stretch]

I also think its somewhat amusing how people think that being "realistic" and "unbiased" means you basically are willing to take the sides of anyone that chooses against your personal favorite team. I'd almost be willing to bet a billion dollars if this person was a Bulls fan, just to be "unbiased" he would say that there actually is an argument that Kobe is equal or greater of a basketball player than MJ, perhaps even saying Kobe > MJ.

[Jose Canseco]

Well in that case there's no NBA player in history who ran every single clutch play for every moment for every one of the championships he won with his team.

I didn't say every single clutch play.

You asked for examples. I gave a couple.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Perimeter guys that create for themselves are easier to find.

Perimeter guys who can create and sink clutch shots in the 4th quarter of big playoff games aren't easier to find than Tyson Chandler type players.

[HarlemHeat37]

With Howard's vast improvement on offense, I'd go with him, although it's toss-up..I agree with Dok's premise that defense has become overvalued, which is why I believe it's a toss-up, since a legit superstar offensive player(there are only a few in the NBA) that can carry a championship team is a rare commodity..

They are the two most valuable players in the NBA, in respect to their teams, at the moment IMO..

Howard's offense has actually improved dramatically, to the point where he can carry a team offensively, although obviously not to the extent that you would expect from a man carrying the "best big in the NBA" le..

Howard's problem, offensively, is not his actual game anymore(outside of his passing, which is still erratic), it's his mental limitations..he often allows the officials to get in his head, along with certain opponents that play him physically..

Nowitzki is the clutchest player in the NBA, without a doubt IMO..obviously his primary advantage, since Howard has him dominated in defense and rebounding..Dirk has improved defensively, but he's still an average defender, at best..

Toss-up, depending on team needs..

[DMC]

Dirk is the most effective player in the NBA, on the team in which he plays. He wouldn't be the best in an All Star talent pool, because he's not that good on the defensive end. He's not the best player in the game. There's plenty Dirk cannot do, and the court has both ends.

[Monostradamus]

You asked for examples. I gave a couple.

Just because Manu/Parker and Kobe had the ball in their hands during crunch time didn't mean Duncan and Shaq weren't still the go-to guys offensively for their team. They were still the focal point of the offense.

[DMC]

I also think its somewhat amusing how people think that being "realistic" and "unbiased" means you basically are willing to take the sides of anyone that chooses against your personal favorite team. I'd almost be willing to bet a billion dollars if this person was a Bulls fan, just to be "unbiased" he would say that there actually is an argument that Kobe is equal or greater of a basketball player than MJ, perhaps even saying Kobe > MJ.

I would bet a trillion dollars.

[HarlemHeat37]

As for Howard to Miami, I wouldn't make the trade..Miami's problems had very little to do with their lack of distinction in their clutch time roles..Lebron choked, that's all that matters..up to that point, the only player that meant more to his team in the playoffs, statistically, was Nowitzki..

Like Dok said, the Heat were 2 wins away from a le, despite Lebron choking, despite playing D-league caliber players in the rotation, despite major injuries to the 4th and 5th best players on the team, and despite having an inexperienced, poor coach and no chemistry..

[Jose Canseco]

Dirk is the most effective player in the NBA, on the team in which he plays. He wouldn't be the best in an All Star talent pool, because he's not that good on the defensive end. He's not the best player in the game. There's plenty Dirk cannot do, and the court has both ends.

Don't know if I agree 100% with that (I'd have to think about that for a few), but it's a great way to put it. For what Dallas needs from it's franchise player, Dirk provides it to a tee. So it really depends on what is asked from the star player of the team. Obviously Dirk on a team like Golden State might put up similar numbers, probably better numbers, but it likely wouldn't make Golden State a championship team as they are built right now.

[Monostradamus]

Wake me up when the alley-oop becomes a viable crunch time play for Orlando. Then I'll take Howard. Until then I'll take about 10 other guys in the NBA before him.

[stretch]

You don't know that.

good point

Howard hasn't even won a le, so how can someone say that he doesn't need a legit wing player at his side to win a le, something that virtually every dominant center in history has needed in order to win a le?

And for s sake, Howard got his ass handed to him by Pau ing Gasol. Even Dirk doesnt let Gasol do jack on him, and we are led to believe that Howards defense = or > Dirks offense??? GMAFB

Howards offense > Dirks defense

but

Dirks offense >>> Howards defense

Until Howard proves he can actually be a legit #1 scoring threat, or can rebound and defend his way to a championship as a #1 scorer that isnt a considerable scoring threat (something that only Bill Russell has been able to accomplish, which happened in an era where he by far had the most stacked team in the league, and overall compe ion was complete ), there is no legit argument that exists that Howard > Dirk. I have said that before Dirk won it all, and believe it 100x more now that Dirk did win it all.

[Jose Canseco]

Just because Manu/Parker and Kobe had the ball in their hands during crunch time didn't mean Duncan and Shaq weren't still the go-to guys offensively for their team. They were still the focal point of the offense.

Agree. However, you made the distinction in your proposed question between #1 guy and being the go-to guy in the clutch. There's very much the argument that the examples provided were of Shaq and Duncan being the #1 guys on their teams but Kobe and Ginobili the go-to guys in the clutch. Doesn't mean Shaq and Duncan never touched the ball in crunchtime or never took shots in crunchtime. But the basketball and offense and decision making in crunchtime would be in the hands of someone else.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Like Dok said, the Heat were 2 wins away from a le, despite Lebron choking, despite playing D-league caliber players in the rotation, despite major injuries to the 4th and 5th best players on the team, and despite having an inexperienced, poor coach and no chemistry..

Tbh if it's true SamDam has agreed to go to Miami for the MLE (assuming there is an MLE after the new CBA) there's especially no reason for them to trade Lebron for Dwight.

[HarlemHeat37]

Howard was the best player on a team that made the NBA Finals, it's not like he's Chris Bosh or Yao Ming, he has had some playoff success..

If you need a player to carry the offensive load on a team that has limited offensive options, obviously you go with Nowitzki..however, if your team needs more of an "all-around player", which a lot of teams need, I don't see how you can pass on Howard..

[Monostradamus]

Howard was the best player on a team that made the NBA Finals, it's not like he's McGrady or Yao Ming, he has had some playoff success..

yeah he only needed 4-5 players on the team to have career years all at the same time, with those guys hitting every big shot in the playoffs to get there.

[stretch]

clutch defense is almost always a product of a great team scheme (see this years Dallas Mavericks defense, along with many others who needed several solid players and a good scheme, as opposed to one defensive player that shuts everyone down on his own)

clutch offense is almost always a product of a dominant scorer (see MJ, Kobe, Bird, and others telling everyone to give them the ball and get the out of their way)


Dirk > Howard

[DPG21920]

good point

Howard hasn't even won a le, so how can someone say that he doesn't need a legit wing player at his side to win a le, something that virtually every dominant center in history has needed in order to win a le?

And for s sake, Howard got his ass handed to him by Pau ing Gasol. Even Dirk doesnt let Gasol do jack on him, and we are led to believe that Howards defense = or > Dirks offense??? GMAFB

Howards offense > Dirks defense

but

Dirks offense >>> Howards defense

Until Howard proves he can actually be a legit #1 scoring threat, or can rebound and defend his way to a championship as a #1 scorer that isnt a considerable scoring threat (something that only Bill Russell has been able to accomplish, which happened in an era where he by far had the most stacked team in the league, and overall compe ion was complete ), there is no legit argument that exists that Howard > Dirk. I have said that before Dirk won it all, and believe it 100x more now that Dirk did win it all.

Back with the ty arrow argument again I see.