Kobe Bryant will go down in history as just a healthy Tracy McGrady

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

mightnight, when will you be re-joining the RK and helping us with our calculated bombs

[midnightpulp]

I also don't get the TMAc fascination.
Man KI remember seeing like 2 of the 4 straight 40-50 point games Benard threw up before his knee blew out. amzing scorer, but I dont go around saying he would of been better than Bird, Lebron , Pippen etc if he had stayed healthy.

TMAc in his prime was an amazing talent very gifted scorer and better play-maker than Kobe. But besides his length, passing and maybe dunking he does not do anything better than Kobe did in his prime.

Great player but overrated, TBH. Not as much as Vince was who i liked a lot at UNC, but stop with the exaggeration. As nice as Biggie was you cant call him the GOAT rapper off of only two (amazing) albulms ...

Yeah, that's why back in early 00s, everyone except dumbass Laker fans considered McGrady the better player.

That said, even if McGrady stayed healthy, I still think Kobe eventually becomes the better player due to his work ethic and his never ending drive to improve his game, but comparing both players in their early 20s, McGrady pretty much wins out over Kobe in every statistical category. Yeah, Mac never won , but neither would Kobe if his second option was a broken down Grant Hill and his go-to-guy in the post was a 75 year old Patrick Ewing.

[midnightpulp]

mightnight, when will you be re-joining the RK and helping us with our calculated bombs

Man, both you and Mono are my s. Why you gotta make me choose between the two Krews? I'll just stay independent and back up both of you cats when the situation calls for it.

[Killakobe81]

Yeah, that's why back in early 00s, everyone except dumbass Laker fans considered McGrady the better player.

That said, even if McGrady stayed healthy, I still think Kobe eventually becomes the better player due to his work ethic and his never ending drive to improve his game, but comparing both players in their early 20s, McGrady pretty much wins out over Kobe in every statistical category. Yeah, Mac never won , but neither would Kobe if his second option was a broken down Grant Hill and his go-to-guy in the post was a 75 year old Patrick Ewing.

Very scientific, mature and unbiased pulp, "everyone but dumbass Laker fans"?! ... LOL.
Stats, Seriously?! if that is the case, some stats could argue that Karl malone was greater PF than tim duncan. Question mid, ...
IF Mcgrady was so much the better player .. why did Kobe beat out TMAC in most GM and media polls? And dont give me that media hype crap, because that never hurt duncan.
Again, TMAc was an amazingly gifted player but greatly overrated. His playoff failures are legendary and even his former coach Van Gundy griped at because ball came to easy for McGrady, he never worked that hard at it. Sure he had the "potential" to be better than Kobe (he was like Pippen 2.0 much better on offense just not as good on defense). But Derrick Coleman also had great potential too ...

BTW I love how Spur fan, can use stats when it suits their argument but ignore it at other times. Sure TMAc had some great stats he was 6 foot 8 playing two guard with a great wing span. But using stats alone as the crux of your argument, will never sway me. Kobe was better at 18,19,20, 21, 22 ...Maybe TMAc has a two year stretch (23, 24) where those who do not truly know ball thought he was better, but I never was that impressed. Tmac was a great streak shooter, awesome finisher but his fundamentals were never on par with Kobe. I know scoring all those points on Bowen in a few seconds, when Bruce was in his prime, impresses the out of Spur fan ...but Kobe gave yall similar treatment in the playoffs.

[Killakobe81]

ALL NBA in early 2000's

1999-2000 Kobe 2nd team Mcgrady? does not make 3rd team
2000-2001 Kobe 2nd team TMAC 2nd team as well ...
2001-2002 Kobe 1st team Mcgardy 1st team
2002-2003 Kobe 1st team McGrady 1st team
2003-2004 Kobe 1st team McGrady 2nd team
2004-2005 Both on 3rd team
2005-2006 Kobe 1st team McGrady missing I believe is hurt but who knows?

So not only Laker fans, but the basketbal writers only put TMAc and Kobe on the same level 2 of the first 6 seasons of the ealy 2000's but yet EVERYONE except dumb Lakers fans KNEW TMAC was better, because of the STATS ...

[Koolaid_Man]

Very scientific, mature and unbiased pulp, everyone but dumbass Laker fans ... LOL. Stats if that is the case, some stats could argue that Karl malone was greater PF than tim duncan. Question ...
IF Mcgrady was so much the better player why did Kobe beat out TMAC in most GM and media polls? And dont give me that media hype crap, because that never hurt duncan.
Again TMAc was an amazingly gifted player but greatly overrated. His playoff failures are legendary and even his former coach Van Gundy griped at because ball came to easy for McGrady, he never worked that hard at it. Sure he had the "potential" to be better than Kobe (he was like Pippen 2.0 much better on offense just not as good on defense). But Derrick Coleman also had great potential too ...

BTW I love how Spur fan, can use stats when it suits their argument but ignore it at other times. Sure TMAc had some great stats he was 6 foot 8 playing two guard with a great wing span. But using stats alone as the crux of your argument, will never sway me. Kobe was better at 18,19,20, 21, 22 ...Maybe TMAc has a two year stretch where those who do truly no ball thought he was better, but I never was that impressed. Tmac was a great streak shooter, awesome finisher but his fundamentals were never on par with Kobe. I know scoring all those points on Bowen in a few seconds, when Bruce was in his prime, impresses the out of Spur fan ...but Kobe gave yall similar treatment in the playoffs.

Dam....don't pull out....stay in Mids ass....

[Koolaid_Man]

ALL NBA in early 2000's

1999-2000 Kobe 2nd team Mcgrady? does not make 3rd team
2000-2001 Kobe 2nd team TMAC 2nd team as well ...
2001-2002 Kobe 1st team Mcgardy 1st team
2002-2003 Kobe 1st team McGrady 1st team
2003-2004 Kobe 1st team McGrady 2nd team
2004-2005 Both on 3rd team
2005-2006 Kobe 1st team McGrady missing I believe is hurt but who knows?

So not only Laker fans, but the basketbal writers only put TMAc and Kobe on the same level 2 of the first 6 seasons of the ealy 2000's but yet EVERYONE except dumb Lakers fans KNEW TMAC was better, because of the STATS ...

"I said Luther stop lying....I grabbed my keys and went to my hotel room and turned in the TV to watch Kobe play." - Tracy Mcgrady...

[midnightpulp]

[QUOTE=Killakobe81;5389280]

Very scientific, mature and unbiased pulp, everyone but dumbass Laker fans ... LOL. Stats if that is the case, some stats could argue that Karl malone was greater PF than tim duncan.

But Malone's stats, regular season and playoffs, aren't better than Tim Duncan's other than ppg. Tmac surpassed Kobe in nearly every statistical category during their respective early primes.

Question ...
IF Mcgrady was so much the better player why did Kobe beat out TMAC in most GM and media polls? And dont give me that media hype crap, because that never hurt duncan.

Produce those polls from 00 to 03. The GMs didn't really start swinging on Kobe nuts until 06. And if it was such a foregone conclusion that Kobe was a better player, why then did Tmac finish higher than him in MVP voting in 01 and 02? Oh, I know: "Because Shaq took away votes from Kobe, and besides, the MVP award is meaningless anyway. Steve Nash won not one, but two!"

Again TMAc was an amazingly gifted player but greatly overrated. His playoff failures are legendary and even his former coach Van Gundy griped at because ball came to easy for McGrady, he never worked that hard at it. Sure he had the "potential" to be better than Kobe (he was like Pippen 2.0 much better on offense just not as good on defense). But Derrick Coleman also had great potential too ...

And when Kobe was given a similar roster comparable to Tmac's Orlando supporting cast, his playoff failures were quite spectacular as well. Missed the playoffs and exited the first round in back to back years, which included a choke job to a Suns team, that in reality, weren't really all that much better on paper than the Lakers.

BTW I love how Spur fan, can use stats when it suits their argument but ignore it at other times.

When I have ignored any statistical argument out of hand?

Kobe was better at 18,19,20, 21, 22 ...

Prove it.

Maybe TMAc has a two year stretch where those who do truly no ball thought he was better, but I never was that impressed. Tmac was a great streak shooter, awesome finisher but his fundamentals were never on par with Kobe. I know scoring all those points on Bowen in a few seconds, when Bruce was in his prime, impresses the out of Spur fan ...but Kobe gave yall similar treatment in the playoffs.

Lol. And Kobe's not a streak shooter? Futhermore, Kobe wasn't the refined fundamental player in those days as he is today. He relied much more on his athleticism and had nowhere near the post game or midrange jumper. And that's precisely why I think Kobe still ends up the better player. I doubt Tmac would continue to work on his game as his athleticism declined like Kobe has.

That said, it's funny how sensitive Kobe fans are that another wing player just might have better than their hero for a whole 2 or 3 seasons! KG was the better player than Duncan in '04, when both were in their primes. Dirk was very close to Duncan in '06, again, both players in their primes.

It's not an insult to Kobe to say Tmac was the better player for those 2 or 3 seasons. Everything, from stats to on the court performances, suggest that he was.

[picc84]

Tmac at his prime was definitely Kobe's peer offensively, but Kobe was so much better defensively and in the intangible department thats where the separation came.

Tmac had the potential to be the best swingman post Jordan, over Kobe, Lebron, Wade, everyone. He didn't assert himself enough and never cared about winning at all costs. He was having too much fun playing, and when he wasn't having fun he turned the switch off. Part of the reason every Tmac discussion on the planet revolves around one single season.

The other part being Mr. Glass of course.

[midnightpulp]

Tmac at his prime was definitely Kobe's peer offensively, but Kobe was so much better defensively and in the intangible department thats where the separation came.

Tmac had the potential to be the best swingman post Jordan, over Kobe, Lebron, Wade, everyone. He didn't assert himself enough and never cared about winning at all costs. He was having too much fun playing, and when he wasn't having fun he turned the switch off. Part of the reason every Tmac discussion on the planet revolves around one single season.

"Intangibles" come a whole easier when the best big man of all time (which Shaq was during the 3 peat years, although repeat Hakeem is his equal) is your teammate. On the other hand, Tmac's "best big" was a collection of a 39 year old Patrick Ewing, a 300 pound Shawn Kemp, a 36 year old Horace Grant, Andrew DeClerq, Pat Burke, and a rookie Drew Gooden. Again, when Kobe was given a similar supporting cast, those "intangibles" seemed to vanish, even to the point where they devolved to outright pouting and quitting.

I do think Kobe was better defensively, but "not so much better." A tier above, for sure, but he didn't blow Tmac out of the water in that department. Tmac's defensive rating was about the same in those days.

[Killakobe81]

[QUOTE=midnightpulp;5389301]

But Malone's stats, regular season and playoffs, aren't better than Tim Duncan's other than ppg. Tmac surpassed Kobe in nearly every statistical category during their respective early primes.



Produce those polls from 00 to 03. The GMs didn't really start swinging on Kobe nuts until 06. And if it was such a foregone conclusion that Kobe was a better player, why then did Tmac finish higher than him in MVP voting in 01 dn 02? Oh, I know: "Because Shaq took away votes from Kobe, and besides, the MVP award is meaningless anyway. Steve Nash won not one, but two!"



And when Kobe was given a similar roster comparable to Tmac's Orlando supporting cast, his playoff failures were quite spectacular as well. Missed the playoffs and exited the first round in back to back years, which included a choke job to a Suns team, that in reality, weren't really all that much better on paper than the Lakers.



When I have ignored any statistical argument out of hand?



Prove it.



Lol. And Kobe's not a streak shooter? Futhermore, Kobe wasn't the refined fundamental player in those days as he is today. He relied much more on his athleticism and had nowhere near the post game or midrange jumper. And that's precisely why I think Kobe still ends up the better player. I doubt Tmac would continue to work on his game as his athleticism declined like Kobe has.

That said, it's funny how sensitive Kobe fans are that another wing player just might have better than their hero for a whole 2 or 3 seasons! KG was the better player than Duncan in '04, when both were in their primes. Dirk was very close to Duncan in '06, again, both players in their primes.

It's not an insult to Kobe to say Tmac was the better player for those 2 or 3 seasons. Everything, from stats to on the court performances, suggest that he was.

I freely admitted that there were at least 2 seasons where they were on par, and some could argue 3. I just told you I personally never thought TMAC was better just like I never thought Kobe was better than MJ even after 81. Sure Kobe's post game and mid-range jumper have improved but to me, even at that time he was better at both than TMAC. TMAc scored with his first step, length and was a better 3 point shooter than Kobe. I also think he was a more willing passer. No I don't have a problem with anyone saying someone is beter than Kobe (I gave Lebron all sorts of praise last year) but though a fan of his gifts I just think TMAc is overrated. I think a prime Grant Hill was a better all-around player (than TMAC) and I ing hate Duke.

If people made the case you were making for hill I would more apt to conside r it ...but to me, TMAC was never in that class of player. Sure he had more highlights than both for a few seasons ...but "game" and skills he is lacking ...

[midnightpulp]

ALL NBA in early 2000's

1999-2000 Kobe 2nd team Mcgrady? does not make 3rd team
2000-2001 Kobe 2nd team TMAC 2nd team as well ...
2001-2002 Kobe 1st team Mcgardy 1st team
2002-2003 Kobe 1st team McGrady 1st team
2003-2004 Kobe 1st team McGrady 2nd team
2004-2005 Both on 3rd team
2005-2006 Kobe 1st team McGrady missing I believe is hurt but who knows?

So not only Laker fans, but the basketbal writers only put TMAc and Kobe on the same level 2 of the first 6 seasons of the ealy 2000's but yet EVERYONE except dumb Lakers fans KNEW TMAC was better, because of the STATS ...

And? Jordan and Mark Price shared a 1st team spot at once point. Magic and Jordan lived on the first team together in the early 90s when everyone knew at that point Jordan had surpassed Magic as the league's best player.

And I never said "Kobe wasn't on Tmac's level," just that Tmac was the better player.

[picc84]

"Intangibles" come a whole easier when the best big man of all time (which Shaq was during the 3 peat years, although repeat Hakeem is his equal) is your teammate. On the other hand, Tmac's "best big" was a collection of a 39 year old Patrick Ewing, a 300 pound Shawn Kemp, a 36 year old Horace Grant, Andrew DeClerq, Pat Burke, and a rookie Drew Gooden. Again, when Kobe was given a similar supporting cast, those "intangibles" seemed to vanish, even to the point where they devolved to outright pouting and quitting.

I do think Kobe was better defensively, but "not so much better." A tier above, for sure, but he didn't blow Tmac out of the water in that department. Tmac's defensive rating was about the same in those days.

I agree on Tmac's Orlando teammates. They were even worse than Kobe's mid-decade Laker ones. I don't put any blame whatsoever on Tracy for not having any playoff success in Orlando.

But for a superstar player, he had enough help in Houston, and was close enough to his prime, that he should have made it out of the first round at least once.

Homecourt advantage plus the 1st or 2nd best center in the league in Yao and playing a mid-tier opponent like the Utah Jazz. I wouldn't expect Ray Allen to take those Rockets into the semifinals. I would certainly expect Tracy McGrady to, as talented as he was.

And I feel like if you put Kobe's brain in Tmac's body during the Houston years with Yao they see the 2nd round at least once. Thats where the intangibles matter.

I don't feel like we're disagreeing too much on this. Orlando Tracy was Kobe's peer offensively, had the talent to be better overall, and shouldn't have his early playoff exits held against him. No question on that.

I do think some of your Kobe statements were wrong though. For one, Kobe isn't a streak shooter (neither was Tmac for that matter) - John Starks was a streak shooter. Kobe will very reliably get you 30 points a night on mostly contested jumpshots. He only seems "streaky" at times because of his ability to go for 55+ at the drop of a dime.

Also, Kobe had a refined post-game by 1998 and by 2003 it was 95% as good as it is now. His mid-range as well.

Tmac was a comparable scorer because of his length and athleticism but Kobe always was more versatile in his scoring methods. The athleticism you referenced (about #8) only gave him more options, so he was less reliant on the post/midrange than he is now. Less reliant - not necessarily less effective.

[Killakobe81]

And? Jordan and Mark Price shared a 1st team spot at once point. Magic and Jordan lived on the first team together in the early 90s when everyone knew at that point Jordan had surpassed Magic as the league's best player.

And I never said "Kobe wasn't on Tmac's level," just that Tmac was the better player.

Not saying ALL NBA isnt just opinions ... even if it's more informed then guys on a pickup court at the local gym. But you were the one that said ONLY Laker fans thought Kobe was better, I proved to you that was false. I am not going to spend the timelooking at old articles but ALL NBA seemed like a logical place to point out the opiniion of Kobe vs. TMAc. There were a few seasosn were TMAC got more MVP votes than Kobe, so to be fair that should be mentioned as well. but aLL NBA seems to be less political than MVP which seems to be more sentimental. But I started this by saying I FEEL he is overrated, you made the wild statement that ONLY DUMB Laker fans feel this way, and tried to use stats when your original statement (that i challenged) cant be backed by stats.

BTW, why you ting on Mark price? I thought he was a bit overrated but offensively he could do what Stockton did but was a much better shooter/scorer. John gets the edge defensively but was overrated a bit there too ...TBH.

[midnightpulp]

[QUOTE=Killakobe81;5389334]

I freely admitted that there were at least 2 seasons where they were on par, and some could argue 3. I just told you I personally never thought TMAC was better just like I never thought Kobe was better than MJ even after 81. Sure Kobe's post game and mid-range jumper have improved but to me, even at that time he was better at both than TMAC. TMAc scored with his first step, length and was a better 3 point shooter than Kobe. I also think he was a more willing passer. No I don't have a problem with anyone saying someone is beter than Kobe (I gave Lebron all sorts of praise last year) but though a fan of his gifts I just think TMAc is overrated. I think a prime Grant Hill was a better all-around player (than TMAC) and I ing hate Duke.

If people made the case you were making for hill I would more apt to conside r it ...but to me, TMAC was never in that class of player. Sure he had more highlights than both for a few seasons ...but "game" and skills he is lacking ...

I'm not sure how you think Tmac is overrated when no one, especially the media, exalted the guy in the first place, instead choosing to focus on his "playoff failures," which were really never his fault to begin with. Only hardcore fans who remember what the guy was like in his youth give him any recognition. I mean, seriously, go to bball reference and check out Tmac's supporting cast in Orlando. Then he arrives in Houston, where the 3rd best player on the team is Mike James. Sure, McGrady was inconsistent to downright terrible against Dallas in the playoffs that year, blowing a 2-0 lead they got on the road, but what marquee player hasn't been inconsistent or awful in a playoff series?

[Killakobe81]

And? Jordan and Mark Price shared a 1st team spot at once point. Magic and Jordan lived on the first team together in the early 90s when everyone knew at that point Jordan had surpassed Magic as the league's best player.

And I never said "Kobe wasn't on Tmac's level," just that Tmac was the better player.

I dont get the argument. why would it not make sense for Price or Magic to be the other ALL NBA guard next to MJ?

[Jose Canseco]

From my own personal experience, I recall T-Mac being viewed as a more naturally gifted basketball player than Kobe in the early 2000s, but not necessarily the better player. There were times in that early 3 peat Laker run where some people (again this just in my experience among my circle of friends and what not) who would argue that guys like Vince or T-Mac or Iverson could have done the same thing as Kobe did if they were on the Lakers with Shaq. But Kobe did start getting more recognition as an elite player as early as the 2001 playoffs based on that Spurs series where Kobe just went off at an unstoppable pace.

Kobe and T-Mac were definitely peers in those early 2000s seasons. I think the difference is that T-Mac was viewed as naturally more gifted. And Kobe was viewed more polished and skilled. I'm sure there were detractors of Kobe because of the team he played for and playing alongside Shaq. But it wasn't unanimous or a consensus that T-Mac was better than Kobe back then. It was arguable. T-Mac put up one of great statistical seasons together in 2002-03 and yet Kobe pretty much matched him that same season and finished higher in MVP voting. So T-Mac's best season was pretty much a wash with Kobe, just like many of the other seasons in the early 2000s. In some ways, I recall Vince in the late 90s and early 2000s before his career started to spiral was a more compelling comparison and debate as to who was better between him and Kobe.

[midnightpulp]

I agree on Tmac's Orlando teammates. They were even worse than Kobe's mid-decade Laker ones. I don't put any blame whatsoever on Tracy for not having any playoff success in Orlando.

But for a superstar player, he had enough help in Houston, and was close enough to his prime, that he should have made it out of the first round at least once.

Homecourt advantage plus the 1st or 2nd best center in the league in Yao and playing a mid-tier opponent like the Utah Jazz. I wouldn't expect Ray Allen to take those Rockets into the semifinals. I would certainly expect Tracy McGrady to, as talented as he was.

And I feel like if you put Kobe's brain in Tmac's body during the Houston years with Yao they see the 2nd round at least once. Thats where the intangibles matter.

I don't feel like we're disagreeing too much on this. Orlando Tracy was Kobe's peer offensively, had the talent to be better overall, and shouldn't have his early playoff exits held against him. No question on that.

I do think some of your Kobe statements were wrong though. For one, Kobe isn't a streak shooter (neither was Tmac for that matter) - John Starks was a streak shooter. Kobe will very reliably get you 30 points a night on mostly contested jumpshots. He only seems "streaky" at times because of his ability to go for 55+ at the drop of a dime.

Also, Kobe had a refined post-game by 1998 and by 2003 it was 95% as good as it is now. His mid-range as well.

Tmac was a comparable scorer because of his length and athleticism but Kobe always was more versatile in his scoring methods. The athleticism you referenced (about #8) only gave him more options, so he was less reliant on the post/midrange than he is now. Less reliant - not necessarily less effective.

By the time Tmac got to Houston, the argument was over. McGrady was levels below Kobe at that point. He was still good in '05, but his Orlando days are what I consider his prime.

I don't agree that Kobe's post game was 95% as good in '03 as it is now. Because he was younger, he was obviously quicker with his drop step move from the post position, but he had nowhere near the arsenal of moves he has today. He also goes to the low post much more today compared to then.

It also stands to reason if you become more reliant on something you also become better at it by virtue of increased use. Naturally, Kobe would become more effective in the post and with the midrange jumper because he had to go to those more as his athleticism declined.

[midnightpulp]

I dont get the argument. why would it not make sense for Price or Magic to be the other ALL NBA guard next to MJ?

I didn't say that. I was contending your position that if two players share a spot on an All NBA team, they're ostensibly equals, which you seemed to imply with the way you presented the argument.

Of course Magic would belong on the first team in those years, but just because he is, doesn't mean he's Jordan's equal, and in the early 90s, Jordan was a tier above Magic as a player (fwiw, MJ was a tier above everyone), despite the fact they both made the first team at the guard position.

As a disclaimer, don't get angry. I'm not dissing Magic, or saying Jordan is a tier above him for their careers, but Magic was already past his prime by the early 90s.

[Killakobe81]

I didn't say that. I was contending your position that if two players share a spot on an All NBA team, they're ostensibly equals, which you seemed to imply with the way you presented the argument.

Of course Magic would belong on the first team in those years, but just because he is, doesn't mean he's Jordan's equal, and in the early 90s, Jordan was a tier above Magic as a player (fwiw, MJ was a tier above everyone), despite the fact they both made the first team at the guard position.

As a disclaimer, don't get angry. I'm not dissing Magic, or saying Jordan is a tier above him for their careers, but Magic was already past his prime by the early 90s.

LOL i dont get angry on here ...I just dont get the unmitigated TMAc love by some folks. I remember arguing with cats at work about this same topic back in the 2000's and I remember some (not all and I was in NY at the time) thought TMAc was better others Kobe. My point again was it was NOT ONLY Kobe fans that thought Bryant was better. I get you were being smug, but your statement was false just the same.

[Killakobe81]

Much like Canseco the arguments for Vince, AI and in L.A. even Pierce was more fierce than TMAC ...

[Killakobe81]

I didn't say that. I was contending your position that if two players share a spot on an All NBA team, they're ostensibly equals, which you seemed to imply with the way you presented the argument.

Of course Magic would belong on the first team in those years, but just because he is, doesn't mean he's Jordan's equal, and in the early 90s, Jordan was a tier above Magic as a player (fwiw, MJ was a tier above everyone), despite the fact they both made the first team at the guard position.

As a disclaimer, don't get angry. I'm not dissing Magic, or saying Jordan is a tier above him for their careers, but Magic was already past his prime by the early 90s.

the same team point was just to show you perception, by non-Lakers fans.

[midnightpulp]

LOL i dont get angry on here ...I just dont get the unmitigated TMAc love by some folks. I remember arguing with cats at work about this same topic back in the 2000's and I remember some (not all and I was in NY at the time) thought TMAc was better others Kobe. My point again was it was NOT ONLY Kobe fans that thought Bryant was better. I get you were being smug, but your statement was false just the same.

Of course I was being smug and trolling to a degree with my "only dumbass Kobe fans" comment.

I know that comment was in a reply to your post, but that bullet was really meant for Kool and similar suckers.

[picc84]

By the time Tmac got to Houston, the argument was over. McGrady was levels below Kobe at that point. He was still good in '05, but his Orlando days are what I consider his prime.

I don't agree that Kobe's post game was 95% as good in '03 as it is now. Because he was younger, he was obviously quicker with his drop step move from the post position, but he had nowhere near the arsenal of moves he has today. He also goes to the low post much more today compared to then.

It also stands to reason if you become more reliant on something you also become better at it by virtue of increased use. Naturally, Kobe would become more effective in the post and with the midrange jumper because he had to go to those more as his athleticism declined.

Houston was past his prime, but Tmac was still a 25/6/6 player in his first few years there. Thats good enough to get a team like the Rockets past the first round with homecourt, against mid-tier teams. At least, it should have been.

If you don't think Tmac lacks any intangibles Kobe has that's your prerogative, but it seems strange considering that is the thing every "Tmac was such a disappointment" discussion boils down to - even amongst his biggest fans.

re: post-game and mid-range

His post-game repertoire is more extensive and he's down there a lot more now, but there's only so much you can do as a guard. Kobe was getting double-teamed in the post before the Lakers won their first championship. Its always come natural to him.

The athleticism he had then allowed him to execute maneuvers faster. His post-up fadeaway was much better b/c he got more lift and separation. His drop-step and up and under was quicker and his release closer to the rim. Athleticism affects all aspects of your game, not just drives to the rim.

Mid-range wise his fingers have affected his ability to shoot, especiallly off-balance, in recent years. From 2003-2008 he pretty much had the same shooting ability. There's no jumpshot you can find him making now that he wasn't making in 03.

[mavs>spurs]

I agree on Tmac's Orlando teammates. They were even worse than Kobe's mid-decade Laker ones. I don't put any blame whatsoever on Tracy for not having any playoff success in Orlando.

But for a superstar player, he had enough help in Houston, and was close enough to his prime, that he should have made it out of the first round at least once.

enough help like that 7'6 jinx or a head PG like alston w/ no passing game? 04 was the zenith of t-mac's career and i think his prime would have lasted longer if he joined any other team instead of jinx's team imho

Homecourt advantage plus the 1st or 2nd best center in the league in Yao and playing a mid-tier opponent like the Utah Jazz. I wouldn't expect Ray Allen to take those Rockets into the semifinals. I would certainly expect Tracy McGrady to, as talented as he was.

no intention to hurt the s but yao was never a top 3 center of the league, just cracked up his own stats at the cost of teammates'. yao was even more of a hyped-star then lebron tbh, an upgraded version of Shawn Bradley at finest.

Jazz was a mid-table team in the regular season but when it came the playoffs the games turned tougher which favored teams of jazz's style. houston played soft games and jazz were unfortunately a match-up nightmare to them, beating them in 2 consecutive seasons.