My greatest power forwards of all-time list.

[Stalin]

For last 12 years, _irk and the mavs, have been stacked every year, with the top payroll, and still made choking into an art for more than a decade. As soon as spurs and lakers fade, dirk gets lucky, and all of a sudden he's second to duncan all time at pf.

LOL get the out of here son

[JoeTait75]

we do

and dirk is still better

malone made a career off of john stockton getting him wide open shots over and over and over.

dirk made a career off getting his teammates wide open shots over and over and over, and getting any shot he wanted to get for himself in the process

I agree Dirk > Malone simply based on their postseason resumes. Of course Dirk had a couple of series where he laid an egg (2006 Finals, 2007 vs. GS) but he also has signature series from multiple seasons. Series that will always be remembered as belonging to him. You'll hear people say, "Dirk took over that series," or "Dirk carried Dallas in that series."

Malone, on the other hand... does he have ANY series in which he's remembered for taking over? , Stockton took the big shots for that team. I can't think of a single Utah playoff series from the '90s that will be thought of as "Karl Malone's series."

[Giuseppe]

For last 12 years, _irk and the mavs, have been stacked every year, with the top payroll, and still made choking into an art for more than a decade.

The bitter truth.

[LkrFan]

Mailman
KG
TD
Barkley
Dirk
Gasol
Prime Kemp

[endrity]

For last 12 years, _irk and the mavs, have been stacked every year, with the top payroll, and still made choking into an art for more than a decade. As soon as spurs and lakers fade, dirk gets lucky, and all of a sudden he's second to duncan all time at pf.

LOL get the out of here son

The other teams with top payrolls included the Knicks and Blazers. What did that do for them? In fact you can argue that Cuban's desire to overspend reduced the flexibility of the roster and never allowed Dallas to bring in a second superstar because they didn't have the contracts to do so.

[Sportstudi]

The other teams with top payrolls included the Knicks and Blazers. What did that do for them? In fact you can argue that Cuban's desire to overspend reduced the flexibility of the roster and never allowed Dallas to bring in a second superstar because they didn't have the contracts to do so.

Thanks, just wanted to write the same about Cuban's desire of overpaying certain players. That surely impacted the payroll. You can't tell me that guys like Diop (especially after re-signing him) or Dampier were worth their money. About the current roster, despite having a couple of good games in the playoffs, I do think that also Terry is overpaid. Same for Haywood (who only had a few good games during the entire season). There are still other examples left you could make for Cuban overpaying a player or giving up too much in trades, diminishing the flexibility.

[endrity]

Glad to see that I am not the only one thinking Malone is way overrated. You can all you want about having to face Jordan, but I remember him playing well in only two of those 12 Finals games and often playing hot potato with the ball in the final minutes.

Duncan aside, the only other player I think has a strong argument to be over Dirk is Barkley. Unlike KG and Malone, he carried his teams. He was a true franchise-type player, one that you could build around and get the ball to in the last minutes expecting him to win the game for you. More than Malone, Barkley has a true argument on having to face Jordan. Chuck was amazing in 93, and played an epic Finals, only to be topped by what I think was Jordan at his absolute peak.

So yes, I think it is:
1. Duncan
2. Barkley
3. Dirk

I am really not sure KG and Malone are automatic after that. Elvis Hayes has the career to claim one of those spots. McHale to a certain extent can as well.

But the one player who I think is criminally underrated is Bob Pet . He was the only one to beat Russell's Celtics when they were at their best. Led the league as a scorer twice. If anyone has an argument for 4th spot and maybe higher, I think it's Pet .

[LkrFan]

For last 12 years, _irk and the mavs, have been stacked every year, with the top payroll, and still made choking into an art for more than a decade. As soon as spurs and lakers fade, dirk gets lucky, and all of a sudden he's second to duncan all time at pf.

LOL get the out of here son

[stretch]

First of all your statement about Malone making a career out of Stockton is re ed. Stockton helped but I didnt see any other Jazz players making all-nba teams and winning MVPs because they had Stockton setting up shots for them. The Mailman could play.

Secondly, is the game of basketball played on one side of the ball? Why conveniently not consider other aspects of the game, is it because Dirk is average at best in those other aspects?

no doubt he could play

just not as good as Dirk

proof? Dirk led his team to victory against a team with the 2 best players in the NBA in the Finals, and not having any serious #2 option to support him. Malone faced the best player in the NBA, and had what some people still argue was a more talented supporting cast, and still lost. Dirk faced arguably much tougher cir stances than Malone did, and still made the best of it, while Malone is known for pissing his many chances away, despite having what many people felt was a superior all-around team to the Bulls.

yeah, you can make the counter argument you always do of "dirk choked in the past!!!!!!!!!!! " but the difference is, he still came through at least once for his team, when facing tough odds. Malone never did. , Malone wasnt even the best player on his team. If I'm building a team, and had to build around one of those two, I take Stockton 10 times out of 10 before taking Malone.

[stretch]

I agree Dirk > Malone simply based on their postseason resumes. Of course Dirk had a couple of series where he laid an egg (2006 Finals, 2007 vs. GS) but he also has signature series from multiple seasons. Series that will always be remembered as belonging to him. You'll hear people say, "Dirk took over that series," or "Dirk carried Dallas in that series."

Malone, on the other hand... does he have ANY series in which he's remembered for taking over? , Stockton took the big shots for that team. I can't think of a single Utah playoff series from the '90s that will be thought of as "Karl Malone's series."

+1000000000000000

Dirk may have had his bad series, but he also had some absolutely phenomonal series, and finally led them to the Championship. Malone doesnt have many series that were as amazing as Dirk, if any. And obviously he never got them that ring.

[stretch]

Glad to see that I am not the only one thinking Malone is way overrated. You can all you want about having to face Jordan, but I remember him playing well in only two of those 12 Finals games and often playing hot potato with the ball in the final minutes.

Duncan aside, the only other player I think has a strong argument to be over Dirk is Barkley. Unlike KG and Malone, he carried his teams. He was a true franchise-type player, one that you could build around and get the ball to in the last minutes expecting him to win the game for you. More than Malone, Barkley has a true argument on having to face Jordan. Chuck was amazing in 93, and played an epic Finals, only to be topped by what I think was Jordan at his absolute peak.

So yes, I think it is:
1. Duncan
2. Barkley
3. Dirk

I am really not sure KG and Malone are automatic after that. Elvis Hayes has the career to claim one of those spots. McHale to a certain extent can as well.

But the one player who I think is criminally underrated is Bob Pet . He was the only one to beat Russell's Celtics when they were at their best. Led the league as a scorer twice. If anyone has an argument for 4th spot and maybe higher, I think it's Pet .

yeah, Barkley has a MUCH better argument than Malone ever will. Even then, I still say Dirk. Dude got that ring that Chuck never got, and his career still isn't over.

[stretch]

For last 12 years, _irk and the mavs, have been stacked every year, with the top payroll, and still made choking into an art for more than a decade. As soon as spurs and lakers fade, dirk gets lucky, and all of a sudden he's second to duncan all time at pf.

LOL get the out of here son

yup, paying Dampier, Diop, and Terry a combined 35 mil a year means that the Mavs are stacked as , simply because they have a high payroll.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

yeah, Barkley has a MUCH better argument than Malone ever will. Even then, I still say Dirk. Dude got that ring that Chuck never got, and his career still isn't over.

I think in some respects the Barkley argument is tougher. While Malone is a greatly overrated defender and his defense basically consisted of throwing some elbows here and there, he's regarded as a good defender and has a few all NBA defensive appearances. As bad as Dirk has been at biggest weakness for a good portion of his career, Barkley was just as bad. Dirk has never made a huge defensive mistake that directly led to his team losing an important playoff game, while Barkley's "Act first, think later" defense led to Paxson having a finals winning wide open 3.

[stretch]

I think in some respects the Barkley argument is tougher. While Malone is a greatly overrated defender and his defense basically consisted of throwing some elbows here and there, he's regarded as a good defender and has a few all NBA defensive appearances. As bad as Dirk has been at biggest weakness for a good portion of his career, Barkley was just as bad. Dirk has never made a huge defensive mistake that directly led to his team losing an important playoff game, while Barkley's "Act first, think later" defense led to Paxson having a finals winning wide open 3.

good points

but if I had to choose between building a team around Barkley or Malone, I would take Barkley all day.

[endrity]

I agree Dirk > Malone simply based on their postseason resumes. Of course Dirk had a couple of series where he laid an egg (2006 Finals, 2007 vs. GS) but he also has signature series from multiple seasons. Series that will always be remembered as belonging to him. You'll hear people say, "Dirk took over that series," or "Dirk carried Dallas in that series."

Malone, on the other hand... does he have ANY series in which he's remembered for taking over? , Stockton took the big shots for that team. I can't think of a single Utah playoff series from the '90s that will be thought of as "Karl Malone's series."

There are at least three series, '06 Spurs, '11 Lakers, '11 Heat where Dirk led his team to unexpected victories, the type of which Malone never came close to having. And by led, I mean he had some truly epic performances. That right there is the difference.

[stretch]

There are at least three series, '06 Spurs, '11 Lakers, '11 Heat where Dirk led his team to unexpected victories, the type of which Malone never came close to having. And by led, I mean he had some truly epic performances. That right there is the difference.

and he had some pretty legendary moments in the 06 series against Phoenix, and the 11 series against OKC. both were series in which Dallas was favored, but both also had games where things looked pretty much hopeless, and he came out of nowhere and bailed them out (50 point game against Phoenix, 15 point under 5 minute deficit against OKC). if they had lost those games, there was a solid chance they lose the series in both cases, especially against Phoenix as they would have went down 3-2.

[endrity]

and he had some pretty legendary moments in the 06 series against Phoenix, and the 11 series against OKC. both were series in which Dallas was favored, but both also had games where things looked pretty much hopeless, and he came out of nowhere and bailed them out (50 point game against Phoenix, 15 point under 5 minute deficit against OKC). if they had lost those games, there was a solid chance they lose the series in both cases, especially against Phoenix as they would have went down 3-2.

True, he was arguably better in those two series, but as you said, the Mavs were somewhat favoured in both series. The other three were against reigning champions, twice, and against the so-called two best players in the NBA.

p.s though few will remember it, I think Dirk's best series ever was '09 Denver. He went against a formidable defensive frontline and shredded them with 30+pts, 11 rebs, and 50%+ shooting. Second I think is '01 Minny. Dirk was still a young player establishing himself, KG wanted to have him one on one, and Dirk absolutely toyed with him, putting similiar statistics to the Denver series. Whenever someone says KG is sooo much better, they have to look at that series over and over.

[picc84]

1. Duncan
2. Barkley
3. KG
4. Dirk
5. Malone

It's difficult trying to weigh different factors, like the difference between real dominance offensively versus being a better all around player. I ranked Barkley because of his dominance because he even admits now that he wasn't a good defender. But his impact on the game overall lessens the fact that he was a subpar defender, especially when you consider how big a rebounder he was.

I ride with this list.

Also, Barkley was a subpar defender mostly in his Phx years and because he didn't try. In Philly he played more defense. He guarded 2-5 and was a menace in the passing lanes.

I don't see how anyone has a top 3 without Duncan, Barkley, and KG. Clearly the 3 most dominant and complete players at that position.

[endrity]

I ride with this list.

Also, Barkley was a subpar defender mostly in his Phx years and because he didn't try. In Philly he played more defense. He guarded 2-5 and was a menace in the passing lanes.

I don't see how anyone has a top 3 without Duncan, Barkley, and KG. Clearly the 3 most dominant and complete players at that position.

There are 2 franchise players on that list, and one of the best second bananas ever.

[Sportstudi]

True, he was arguably better in those two series, but as you said, the Mavs were somewhat favoured in both series. The other three were against reigning champions, twice, and against the so-called two best players in the NBA.

p.s though few will remember it, I think Dirk's best series ever was '09 Denver. He went against a formidable defensive frontline and shredded them with 30+pts, 11 rebs, and 50%+ shooting. Second I think is '01 Minny. Dirk was still a young player establishing himself, KG wanted to have him one on one, and Dirk absolutely toyed with him, putting similiar statistics to the Denver series. Whenever someone says KG is sooo much better, they have to look at that series over and over.

I agree with the series vs. Denver. I recall people here on this board writing on how much Kenyon Martin would own Dirk and shut him down. Yeah, right... Dirk took a dump on Martin and averaged 34.4 ppg, 11.6 rpg and 4 apg for the series despite having problems with his then fiancee being arrested at his home. Obviously Pau wasn't able to do the same this year... Too bad that the entire rest of the Mavs the bed against Denver.

[FkLA]

p.s though few will remember it, I think Dirk's best series ever was '09 Denver. He went against a formidable defensive frontline and shredded them with 30+pts, 11 rebs, and 50%+ shooting. Second I think is '01 Minny. Dirk was still a young player establishing himself, KG wanted to have him one on one, and Dirk absolutely toyed with him, putting similiar statistics to the Denver series. Whenever someone says KG is sooo much better, they have to look at that series over and over.

Dirk is a great offensive talent and there are very few guys that he hasnt burned, the fact that KG couldnt stop him doesnt make him a better and more complete player though. KG aside from putting up 22-23 ppg was a better rebounder and a far superior defensive player.

Also I dont see how you can call that a 2nd banana. Yall Dallas homers love to bring up supporting casts to defend Dirk, well take a minute to look at KG's. A disgruntled Marbury and Wally Sczerbiak are probably the best players he had prior to 04', once he finally had some help in 04' with Spreewell&Cassell he managed to reach the WCF and was forced to play PG at times in that series vs LA bc of Cassell's injury. Who knows how far he goes with competent GMs and a higher payroll in Minny. Not to mention that he was actually the Cs best player in 08', regardless of who got the Finals MVP.

[picc84]

There are 2 franchise players on that list, and one of the best second bananas ever.

Only 2nd banana talent of that list is Malone. So i'm guessing thats who you're talking about.

[endrity]

Only 2nd banana talent of that list is Malone. So i'm guessing thats who you're talking about.

I am talking about the guy who never even dared to take a last second shot, and needed two All-Stars next to him to get that le.

[stretch]

Dirk is a great offensive talent and there are very few guys that he hasnt burned, the fact that KG couldnt stop him doesnt make him a better and more complete player though. KG aside from putting up 22-23 ppg was a better rebounder and a far superior defensive player.

lets put it this way

David Robinson was a much more complete player than Shaq, and its not even close. In a way, Shaq was a one-trick pony, in that he would simply overpower his opponents. But Shaq's one trick of extreme physical dominance, was still better then all of D-Robs very good tricks of versatility, which is why Shaq is always considered a greater player than Robinson, and is viewed by many as the greatest center to ever play (or at the very least, in the discussion), whereas you never hear Robinsons name in that discussion (except by homer spurfans).

KG is a much more complete player than Dirk. But Dirk's ability to raise the level of his teammates play, and to score at will on any defender, is superior to all of KG's various abilities in which he was superior to Dirk, such as being a stronger defender and rebounder.

[dirk4mvp]

Not a good example. There are spur fans that think Robinson actually is better than Shaq.