One of the better top 100 lists I've seen (Dirk gets his due!).

[joshdaboss]

Dirk ahead of guys like Karl Malone and David Robinson is absolutely insane.

[FkLA]

He's a franchise player, the only mediocre aspects of his game are defense and rebounding, but his other skills make him more than worthy for number 18, in my opinion.

So in other words he only plays on one side of the ball?

Noone is saying he wasnt a franchise player either, most players in the ~Top 30-40 were franchise players...the level of those franchise players varies though. Dirk is the bottom tier of those franchise players. For most of his career he was never the best player at his position or even a Top 5 player in the league, and his Mavs track record in the postseason was absolute prior to this season. Thats why I rank him in the Top 25-30 range, which isnt even that bad especially for a one-dimensional player. Mav s just get offended way too easily when people dont suck off Dirk like they do.

[stretch]

Dirk ahead of guys like Karl Malone and David Robinson is absolutely acceptable.

[ambchang]

Fair or unfair, some players are defined by one playoff run, series, or even a game.

[stretch]

lol ambchang

[ambchang]

I know, it's pretty funny how there are so many people stupid enough to completely revise a player's ranking after one playoff run.

[WeNeedLength]

I like how the bag thread derailers are staying mostly out of this thread. Good list, that blogger must have taken a while to write that all. I agree Wilt should be lower despite his awesome numbers.

[MR.SILVER&BLack]

top 50 is pretty good. of course with some players that should move up or down a spot with a few that should jump or fall 5-10 spots. 51-100 could have been better. good list tho.

[stretch]

I know, it's pretty funny how there are so many people stupid enough to completely revise a player's ranking after one playoff run.

one legit playoff run as the leader of your team to go along with several massively failed playoff runs, is better than no legit playoff run as the leader of your team to go along with several massively failed playoff runs

[FkLA]

one legit playoff run as the leader of your team to go along with several massively failed playoff runs, is better than no legit playoff run as the leader of your team to go along with several massively failed playoff runs

does this logic assume that the cir stances (quality of teammates, payrolls, etc)of each player are all equal ?

[nowhereman523]

does this logic assume that the cir stances (quality of teammates, payrolls, etc)of each player are all equal ?

idiot.

[stretch]

with this logic, then you could make a case that T-Mac > Duncan, because he never had the kind of talent surrounding him that Duncan had, but was a significantly more gifted and talented basketball player. but we all know what a dumbass argument that would actually be, because facts are facts.

yes, various situations do come into play to an extent, but lets not forget the fact that these are all professional basketball players. if you have a team that wins 55+ games, that team generally is capable of winning a championship. if it wins 60+, it should be among the favorites to win a championship.

Robinson had plenty of chances, and didn't even get to a ing Finals.

Dirk had chances, got to the Finals twice, and won once.

The compe ion point is crap, because both had to go through tough compe ion. The Mavs had a damn tough road to the Finals, beating teams that used several styles of play (Portland tries to win with physical play, Lakers try to win with their well-rounded play with a dominant player both in the post and the perimeter, OKC was athletic and fast-paced, and Miami would attempt to overwhelm you mentally with super-talented, seemingly unstoppable players).

Dirk took everything that was thrown at him, face- ed it, and did his very best to help his team win, whether they needed him to score inside, score outside, draw offensive attention to help teammates, or increase the intensity on defense and rebounding. And its not like its the first time Dirk has been doing this. He's been doing this stuff for years, especially ever since the GS series. The Mavs may have flamed out for those few years since, prior to this year, but in each and every series, even in loss, Dirk played his ass off and did everything he could do to win. This year, that at ude of his finally paid off, as it seemed to rub off on his teammates, and they all really stepped their game up as well.

[DMC]

The problem with lists like this one is that most people try to compare players like Russell to players like Duncan as if they played at the same time.

When a player owns the league for 10 years, they are going to make it on all the "Top" lists. So what if today's players would destroy them. It was a different era with different rules and different strategies for those rules. No one was raised to play ball back then.

So, if I had to put a team together and could pick from any player in history, sure I would have Jordan and Shaq and Tim Duncan, but I would also have people who are not even in the top 20 on that list because some are still playing.

[DMC]

Robinson had plenty of chances, and didn't even get to a ing Finals.

eh?

[stretch]

eh?

as the #1 guy

[FkLA]

with this logic, then you could make a case that T-Mac > Duncan, because he never had the kind of talent surrounding him that Duncan had, but was a significantly more gifted and talented basketball player. but we all know what a dumbass argument that would actually be, because facts are facts.

yes, various situations do come into play to an extent, but lets not forget the fact that these are all professional basketball players. if you have a team that wins 55+ games, that team generally is capable of winning a championship. if it wins 60+, it should be among the favorites to win a championship.

Robinson had plenty of chances, and didn't even get to a ing Finals.

Dirk had chances, got to the Finals twice, and won once.

The compe ion point is crap, because both had to go through tough compe ion. The Mavs had a damn tough road to the Finals, beating teams that used several styles of play (Portland tries to win with physical play, Lakers try to win with their well-rounded play with a dominant player both in the post and the perimeter, OKC was athletic and fast-paced, and Miami would attempt to overwhelm you mentally with super-talented, seemingly unstoppable players).

Dirk took everything that was thrown at him, face- ed it, and did his very best to help his team win, whether they needed him to score inside, score outside, draw offensive attention to help teammates, or increase the intensity on defense and rebounding. And its not like its the first time Dirk has been doing this. He's been doing this stuff for years, especially ever since the GS series. The Mavs may have flamed out for those few years since, prior to this year, but in each and every series, even in loss, Dirk played his ass off and did everything he could do to win. This year, that at ude of his finally paid off, as it seemed to rub off on his teammates, and they all really stepped their game up as well.

Youre quite possibly the biggest Dirk nutthuger on this forum tbh, and thats saying alot. You use the dumbest comparison to try to defend your boy Dirk. This Tmac/Duncan comparison is just as re ed as your Shaq/DRob comparison in the Top 5 PFs of All-Time thread. Did Tmac infinitely impact the game defensively more than Duncan ever did?Was Tmac a significantly better rounded player than Duncan? Because thats what both DRob and KG were compared to Dirk.

And DRobs team won 55-60 games because he anchored the defense and carried the offense, it wasnt because his teammates had the talent to win that many games. Dirk never had the responsibility DRob had on both sides of the ball. Youre acting as if they did share the same responsibilities by suggesting Dirk>DRob simply because he rang as a #1 guy. Youre completely overlooking that Dirk rang as a #1 because he happened to have better players around him not because he was a better basketball player. The funny thing is supporting casts was always Mav fans argument when defending Dirk prior to this year, the excuse was that he didnt ring because Jason fking Terry was his #2 not because he was a choker. Yall even use how "weak" his supporting cast was to prop up how impressive this 2011 le run is. But when it comes to comparing Dirk to players who were superior and more well-rounded basketball player supporting casts go out the window? ing Dirk nuthugger

[DMC]

as the #1 guy

That's splitting hairs on the 1999 team.

[nowhereman523]

Youre quite possibly the biggest Dirk nutthuger on this forum tbh, and thats saying alot. You use the dumbest comparison to try to defend your boy Dirk. This Tmac/Duncan comparison is just as re ed as your Shaq/DRob comparison in the Top 5 PFs of All-Time thread. Did Tmac infinitely impact the game defensively more than Duncan ever did?Was Tmac a significantly better rounded player than Duncan? Because thats what both DRob and KG were compared to Dirk.

And DRobs team won 55-60 games because he anchored the defense and carried the offense, it wasnt because his teammates had the talent to win that many games. Dirk never had the responsibility DRob had on both sides of the ball. Youre acting as if they did share the same responsibilities by suggesting Dirk>DRob simply because he rang as a #1 guy. Youre completely overlooking that Dirk rang as a #1 because he happened to have better players around him not because he was a better basketball player. The funny thing is supporting casts was always Mav fans argument when defending Dirk prior to this year, the excuse was that he didnt ring because Jason fking Terry was his #2 not because he was a choker. Yall even use how "weak" his supporting cast was to prop up how impressive this 2011 le run is. But when it comes to comparing Dirk to players who were superior and more well-rounded basketball player supporting casts go out the window? ing Dirk nuthugger

[nowhereman523]

Youre quite possibly the biggest Dirk nutthuger on this forum tbh, and thats saying alot. You use the dumbest comparison to try to defend your boy Dirk. This Tmac/Duncan comparison is just as re ed as your Shaq/DRob comparison in the Top 5 PFs of All-Time thread. Did Tmac infinitely impact the game defensively more than Duncan ever did?Was Tmac a significantly better rounded player than Duncan? Because thats what both DRob and KG were compared to Dirk.

And DRobs team won 55-60 games because he anchored the defense and carried the offense, it wasnt because his teammates had the talent to win that many games. Dirk never had the responsibility DRob had on both sides of the ball. Youre acting as if they did share the same responsibilities by suggesting Dirk>DRob simply because he rang as a #1 guy. Youre completely overlooking that Dirk rang as a #1 because he happened to have better players around him not because he was a better basketball player. The funny thing is supporting casts was always Mav fans argument when defending Dirk prior to this year, the excuse was that he didnt ring because Jason fking Terry was his #2 not because he was a choker. Yall even use how "weak" his supporting cast was to prop up how impressive this 2011 le run is. But when it comes to comparing Dirk to players who were superior and more well-rounded basketball player supporting casts go out the window? ing Dirk nuthugger

[stretch]

Youre quite possibly the biggest Dirk nutthuger on this forum tbh, and thats saying alot. You use the dumbest comparison to try to defend your boy Dirk. This Tmac/Duncan comparison is just as re ed as your Shaq/DRob comparison in the Top 5 PFs of All-Time thread. Did Tmac infinitely impact the game defensively more than Duncan ever did?Was Tmac a significantly better rounded player than Duncan? Because thats what both DRob and KG were compared to Dirk.

And DRobs team won 55-60 games because he anchored the defense and carried the offense, it wasnt because his teammates had the talent to win that many games. Dirk never had the responsibility DRob had on both sides of the ball. Youre acting as if they did share the same responsibilities by suggesting Dirk>DRob simply because he rang as a #1 guy. Youre completely overlooking that Dirk rang as a #1 because he happened to have better players around him not because he was a better basketball player. The funny thing is supporting casts was always Mav fans argument when defending Dirk prior to this year, the excuse was that he didnt ring because Jason fking Terry was his #2 not because he was a choker. Yall even use how "weak" his supporting cast was to prop up how impressive this 2011 le run is. But when it comes to comparing Dirk to players who were superior and more well-rounded basketball player supporting casts go out the window? ing Dirk nuthugger

haha i win

tool

[FkLA]

haha i win

tool

Playing it off as trolling, even though you actually believe Dirk is a better player than Robinson was

[TD 21]

with this logic, then you could make a case that T-Mac > Duncan, because he never had the kind of talent surrounding him that Duncan had, but was a significantly more gifted and talented basketball player. but we all know what a dumbass argument that would actually be, because facts are facts.

yes, various situations do come into play to an extent, but lets not forget the fact that these are all professional basketball players. if you have a team that wins 55+ games, that team generally is capable of winning a championship. if it wins 60+, it should be among the favorites to win a championship.

Robinson had plenty of chances, and didn't even get to a ing Finals.

Dirk had chances, got to the Finals twice, and won once.

The compe ion point is crap, because both had to go through tough compe ion. The Mavs had a damn tough road to the Finals, beating teams that used several styles of play (Portland tries to win with physical play, Lakers try to win with their well-rounded play with a dominant player both in the post and the perimeter, OKC was athletic and fast-paced, and Miami would attempt to overwhelm you mentally with super-talented, seemingly unstoppable players).

Dirk took everything that was thrown at him, face- ed it, and did his very best to help his team win, whether they needed him to score inside, score outside, draw offensive attention to help teammates, or increase the intensity on defense and rebounding. And its not like its the first time Dirk has been doing this. He's been doing this stuff for years, especially ever since the GS series. The Mavs may have flamed out for those few years since, prior to this year, but in each and every series, even in loss, Dirk played his ass off and did everything he could do to win. This year, that at ude of his finally paid off, as it seemed to rub off on his teammates, and they all really stepped their game up as well.

The usual nonsense about how Duncan is only what he is "because he played with a lot of talent (even though he didn't)" and "because he's big (as if he's physically overwhelming, like a Chamberlain/Robinson/O'Neal/Howard). McGrady is unquestionably on the short list of most talented players of all time, but so is Duncan. Duncan didn't overwhelm players physically the vast majority of the time, he flat out out skilled them. In his prime, he could do everything, from leading a break, to being the ball handler in pick-and-rolls, to shooting on the move, to guarding face up fours, etc.

Robinson had about half of the chances Nowitzki's had and with not nearly as much talent. He'd have likely needed a consistent perimeter scorer to win a championship as a number one option, but so did everyone outside of '94 Olajuwon and '99 and '03 Duncan.

Nowitzki has no business being ranked ahead of Robinson, Malone, Barkley, Garnett, James and Wade.

Off the top of my head, guys who should have made the list but didn't: Gasol, Ginobili, Carter.

[nowhereman523]

The usual nonsense about how Duncan is only what he is "because he played with a lot of talent (even though he didn't)" and "because he's big (as if he's physically overwhelming, like a Chamberlain/Robinson/O'Neal/Howard). McGrady is unquestionably on the short list of most talented players of all time, but so is Duncan. Duncan didn't overwhelm players physically the vast majority of the time, he flat out out skilled them. In his prime, he could do everything, from leading a break, to being the ball handler in pick-and-rolls, to shooting on the move, to guarding face up fours, etc.

Right, the above poster was using this skewed line of analysis to intentionally show how dumb some other posters are. No one is questioning Timmy in this thread, relax. #1 PF of all time, no doubt.

Robinson had about half of the chances Nowitzki's had and with not nearly as much talent. He'd have likely needed a consistent perimeter scorer to win a championship as a number one option, but so did everyone outside of '94 Olajuwon and '03 Duncan.

Hrm that list seems to be missing a certain player?

Nowitzki has no business being ranked ahead of Robinson, Malone, Barkley, Garnett, James and Wade.

False.

Off the top of my head, guys who should have made the list but didn't: Gasol, Ginobili, Carter.

True.

[DPG21920]

I probably respect Dirk and rank him higher than most Spurs fans, but I'm not being a homer at all when I say I think David Robinson was a better player. I think the compe ion certainly does matter, especially how elite big men are so crucial to winning. David played in a era with much more dominant prime big men.

Taking that out of the equation though, I can't rank someone like Dirk, as great as he is and with how much more valuable being a great offensive player is normally than a great defensive player, ahead of Robinson due to his huge deficiency on one end. Dirk is clearly the superior offensive player, but Robinson's offense was still pretty elite for a big man and he was so much better defensively than Dirk I have issue with it.

The gap between Dirk's O and David's O is so much less than the gap between the two's defense. I could understand if you were comparing a really good defensive player with below average offense to an offensive player with below average defense (like Dirk), but when you have someone that is elite where the other player is (even if the other player is better in that cat) and also elite where the other player is pretty deficient, I can't rank them ahead.

I, unlike a lot of others, don't put much stock into the le smack and ring count. I think it's definitely important, but I don't just rank a guy with a ring as better than someone without. I also take into consideration that some styles are just better suited in their particular era as far as match ups go. Before Dirk won this year, he was a questionable number one guy. I don't think the le changes that. He's a great player and it's not to take away from him, but what I mean by this is that with a guy like Barkley compared to whomever for example, I don't really knock Charles down very much because of no rings.

David did have his struggles at times as well, but his struggles were against elite one on one match ups like prime Shaq, Hakeem(obviously not every playoff or anything, but just the general era).. not Bosh/Joel Anthony.

With a cast that I would say is at best equal to what Dirk had talent wise, David enjoyed just as many successes in the regular season as Dirk did. Other than that one finals run, Dirk got bounced plenty of times in the first round or second round just like David.

I just don't think that the one finals run props Dirk up any more, just like it shouldn't have counted against him as much from some stupid fans.

I don't think there is any justifiable way to say Dirk was such a better number one option than David nor do the stats or accolades back that up either.

They have the same amount of all star appearances.

They each have one NBA MVP

Dirk has a finals MVP

David has a DPOY (Which IMO is much more weighted than a finals MVP)

David has a ROY

David has 10 All NBA Teams (4 1st, 2 2nd, 4 3rds)
Dirk has 11 All NBA Teams (4 1st, 5 2nd, 2 3rds)

David has 8 All NBA Defensive Teams
Dirk has 0

Career MVP Award Shares: David (12th) Dirk (21st)

PER Career: David (26.2 ranked 4th all time) Dirk (23.7 ranked 15th all time)

Offensive Rating Career: David (116 ranked 29th) Dirk (117 ranked 18th)

Defensive Rating Career: David (95.6 ranked 6th) Dirk (46.5 ranked 54th)

Win Shares Career: David (178 ranked 11th) Dirk (161 ranked 19th)

Basically all number and advance metrics play out like we think they would with Dirk being the better offensive player, but David still being in the elite category. However, David is also in the elite category on the defensive end.

[Leetonidas]

I also personally think David was a better player than Nowitzki overall but he wasn't a better leader. I think his legacy is often synced with his performance against Hakeem in the 1995 playoffs, which is unfair. David got destroyed, but so did everyone else by Hakeem, and at least David put up some respectable numbers. Besides had Rodman gave a things may have turned out differenty (inb4 bible chasing) but in the end it got us Duncan so I can't complain.

But think about it, David has been a scoring champ and a defensive player of the year, something Dirk will probably never sniff (DPOY definitely). He was an athletic monster and in his prime he could swipe the ball from you as he blocks you and run it down court faster than everyone else and slam it on them. Most people would say Dirk is a better offensive player but even that is debatable because Robinson was an elite offensive player in his time as well while being a defensive anchor capable of 4+ blocks, not to mention the dude netted a quad-double.

I will say that he did the bed in the playoffs, that is undeniable. So did Dirk, but he recovered and got the prize. David never had that chance because of his foot breaking then his back problems and Timmy coming onto the scene because he was no longer the main guy in 97. But then again it's not like he was just standing out there watching during the 1999 playoffs, his play was just as imperative as Duncan's and I think Robinson allowing Duncan to take over the driver's seat says a lot about his character because a guy like Kobe wouldn't do that. Although one could argue that deference makes him soft, but either way he did what needed to be done for the good of the team.

Dirk's a beast and one of my favorite offensive players to watch but if I'm starting a franchise and I can build around a prime version of either, I take Robinson every time.