Now, all of those numbers don't tell the entire story and there are so many factors to consider (both subjective an objective), but when it comes to Dirk vs David, I don't feel that you can place Dirk ahead, or at least I haven't heard anything to sway me.
Dirk's offense isnt even clearly superior either tbh, I would give him a slight edge simply because of how unstoppable his fadeaway is, but Dave is really close to him. Dave has a scoring le under his belt and was a 25 ppg player before his injury/TD.
I also think (here is the really subjective part) that if you place prime Dirk on the teams that David had before Tim, they are worse. I think if you place prime David on the teams Dirk had, they are just as good if not better.
That and he was also doing what I said he was at the same time.
No, it's complete. Nowitzki had a consistent perimeter scorer (he's just not an All-Star) and a bloated payroll, which led to nearly incomparable depth.
True. I don't see a credible argument for placing a one dimensional player ahead of some of the most complete players of all time and others who at least were well above average at more than one thing.
People love overrating what just happened. Bryant tacked on two more championships, with a men against boys front line and suddenly he went from a non top 10 player all time to being in the discussion with Jordan? As if he suddenly became a better player. The same thing is happening now with Nowitzki. I'm not trying to downplay winning a championship, especially as an undisputed number one option, but he didn't suddenly become a better player.
DPG, you forgot about shot blocking and rebounding. The only thing Nowitzki has on Robinson or any elite big, is range shooting.
Last edited by TD 21; 09-28-2011 at 06:46 PM.
I didn't really forget it, I just lump blocking shots into defense (although that by itself doesn't make you a good defender (hi camby)). I was just making a holistic point.
However, Dirk, IMO has more on bigs than just that. You say it's "just range shooting" but that is an over simplification. He does many things well and his offense is so good (I don't care if it consists of one thing or a million, I care about scoring when everyone is geared to stop you) along with numerous huge playoff games that he is better than many bigs. David just isn't one of them.
I figured you did that, but if you agree that blocking shots does not make a player a good defender, then they shouldn't be lumped into the same category. That also doesn't explain you not mentioning rebounding.
Not on elite, all time bigs. And no, he doesn't do many things well. His strength offensively is easier to slow down than a dominant low post player, which is why Nowitzki's teams have generally underperformed in the playoffs. You're exactly right, he is better than many bigs. Just not elite, all time bigs.
Comparing Nowitzki to Robinson is ridiculous. A better comparison would be Ewing.
You're acting as if Timmy had zero help. Parker scored over 20 7 different times in the 2002-03 playoffs. Jackson had a 7 game stretch where he averaged 17 points. Bowen had a game where he went 7-8 from 3. In most of the finals games, there were at least 4 guys in double figures. In 9 of the 24 playoff games that year, he didn't lead the team in scoring. By way of comparison, Dirk lead the Mavs in scoring in 18 out of 21 games. In reality, Olajuwon's 93-94 run blows both Timmy and Dirk out of the water. Olajuwon had Jordan's retirement, and Timmy had C-Webb and Dirk both getting injured.
48 points on 15 shots is more than a "credible" argument.True. I don't see a credible argument for placing a one dimensional player ahead of some of the most complete players of all time and others who at least were well above average at more than one thing.
People love overrating the past. And you're right - he didn't become a better player. He just demanded that you not dismiss his myriad past accomplishments. Before a ring it's "can't win the big one" and after the ring it's "championships don't mean "?People love overrating what just happened. Bryant tacked on two more championships, with a men against boys front line and suddenly he went from a non top 10 player all time to being in the discussion with Jordan? As if he suddenly became a better player. The same thing is happening now with Nowitzki. I'm not trying to downplay winning a championship, especially as an undisputed number one option, but he didn't suddenly become a better player.
It's professional basketball, it's not NBA2K12. If you count individual facets, Russell Westbrook would be ranked higher than him. It's about impact. A team with Dirk on his best day destroys a team with Robinson or a team with KG on his best day, all things equal.DPG, you forgot about shot blocking and rebounding. The only thing Nowitzki has on Robinson or any elite big, is range shooting.
Thats nice that you took the time to look up all those stats to bolster TDs cast. But bottom line is his #2 Parker averaged 14 ppg during that run on 41% shooting. Terry on the other hand averaged 18 ppg on 48% shooting. He had his solid moments just like Jackson, but they were very very inconsistent. Parker was benched in favor of Speedy Claxton several times during that run for entire 4th quarters thats how hot and cold he was.
Youre conveniently only factoring one side of the ball though. TD's and Dream's runs are in a league of their own because they not only carried the teams offensively (even moreso than Dirk) but they also anchored their team's defense.
As far as Dirk being out in 03', gtfo with that . Those were still Nellie's no defense Mavericks, they werent beating the Spurs with or without Dirk. Im sure as a Mavs fan you clearly remember that they were well on their way to being down 3-1 when Dirk went down, but of course you conveniently left that out. If anything that made that series more interesting as it let NVE go wild.
This is a fact how? This is your opinion and an opinion most people wouldnt share. You have nothing to back this up because things were never equal. Both KG (in Minny) and DRob (pre-TD) were in small-market teams with smaller payrolls and teammates of lesser quality.A team with Dirk on his best day destroys a team with Robinson or a team with KG on his best day, all things equal.
No, I'm not. What I'm saying is, he didn't have a consistent second scorer. As FkLA pointed out, '11 Terry is a more consistent scorer than '03 Parker was. Jackson, Bowen, etc., only had offensive explosions because of Duncan getting them wide open threes. There's two reasons why Duncan didn't lead the team in scoring every playoff game:1) He had two and sometimes more defenders on him frequently, 2) He's unselfish and didn't force shots when doubled.
Duncan's '03 was actually clearly superior to Olajuwon's '94. Duncan's 5.94 win shares is the top ranked single season playoff one, while Olajuwon's 4.28 is 17th. He also had a higher PER, at 28.42 to 27.69. Olajuwon scored more because he shot significantly more, not because he was a vastly superior scorer.
So one game makes him better than all those players?48 points on 15 shots is more than a "credible" argument.
Only extremely casual observers dismissed Nowitzki's past accomplishments. The truth is, by many in the "basketball world", he's been overrated for years. Who said "championships don't mean "? I'm just saying, it doesn't change the player he is. When Duncan went up 4-3 on Bryant, I never said "he's better because he has more rings", I said he's better because he's a superior player.People love overrating the past. And you're right - he didn't become a better player. He just demanded that you not dismiss his myriad past accomplishments. Before a ring it's "can't win the big one" and after the ring it's "championships don't mean "?
So individual facets don't matter or matter minimally? What matters most then, scoring? It is about impact, but a player who can impact the game in more ways and come close enough in the one way another does, is clearly superior.It's professional basketball, it's not NBA2K12. If you count individual facets, Russell Westbrook would be ranked higher than him. It's about impact. A team with Dirk on his best day destroys a team with Robinson or a team with KG on his best day, all things equal.
The Nowitzki-Garnett comparison is the most perplexing, because they played the same position, in the same era and when Garnett was in his prime, no one (outside of Mavs homers) ever put them in the same class. But now, after the fact, Nowitzki is suddenly superior? It makes no sense.
Epic in fail. rofl KG wipes his ass with Nowitzki. Reason being, he plays on both ends. Let's not even get into Robinson, because he obviously defecates all over both something terrible.
i do believe it. i win because i got you to spout off all that ridiculous bull i didnt bother to read and never will.Playing it off as trolling, even though you actually believe Dirk is a better player than Robinson was
and not a single explanation given here by spurfans are acceptable, because this is the same fanbase that continues to argue to death that Timmy > Kobe, or even D-Rob > Kobe. even if you don't believe in that yourself, you automatically do because you are spurfan.
spurs
4 rings got!
suck it es
I don't think Dave is better than Kobe...
i win because u responded to my long ass post and i didnt respond to urs
im a mavs fan so i believe dirk>robinson& kg even if the facts suggest otherwise. homer spurs fan does it so why cant i?
suck it es
according to spurfan logic, leading your team to rings is the only thing that counts
dirk 1
rob 0
there is the self-proclaimed only meaningful stat, suggesting that dirk > rob
lulz
that trolling attempt might make some kind of sense if you didnt actually believe dirk>robinson
facts are facts, bub
dirkie > robbie
accept it
So wait. Now Dirk's selfish, doesn't pass out of double-teams, doesn't create looks for Terry, and forces shots? Watch an one of the Lakers games and tell me he didn't enable the entire offense. And yeah, Terry had a good consistent playoffs. But the Spurs consistently had SOMEONE step up - often it was Jackson. Don't tell me that Timmy didn't consistently have help. Lots of guys stepped up huge. , Steve Kerr ended our season. I think this Mavs team was deeper than that Spurs team, but both had one major catalyst, no other all-star players, and got timely contributions from different sources and rode their superstar's backs. You're underrating huge, timely performances by Robinson (game 6 of the finals), Jackson, Parker, even Malik. They gave as much as a unit as Marion, Terry, Barea, Kidd, Chandler were able to give.
Major lesson from the Sloan/MIT conference: Kevin Pritchard and Mark Cuban telling the world that no professional team even considers win shares because it is one of the least useful and accurate stats in basketball. All I know is that team had Vernon Maxwell taking huge shots and shooting under 40%. I'm not a big PER guy.
Not by itself. But when a guy is capable of playing the most efficient high scoring playoff game ever, he's certainly in the conversation. Yeah, not a dominant defender. He's just one of the most unguardable players in the history of the game that's going to end with SEVERAL all-nba first team appearances, an MVP, and a finals MVP, and you claim there's no "credible" argument that he's even in the same category as... Barkley? Wade, who "impacted" his team to a 15 win season? Garnett, who so "impacted" a game in "so many ways" as to completely miss the playoffs in his prime? Results matter.So one game makes him better than all those players?
That's like saying LeBron sucks because he doesn't have a post game. Or that Shaq sucked because he couldn't hit free throws. The difference between a top 10 offensive player all-time and a top-20 offensive player all-time is all the difference in the world.So individual facets don't matter or matter minimally? What matters most then, scoring? It is about impact, but a player who can impact the game in more ways and come close enough in the one way another does, is clearly superior.
That's why Dirk was making all-nba teams while KG was being left off them in his prime? KG had exactly one playoff run where he made it out of the first round before teaming up with 2 future HOFs in or near their primes. What's that? Yes. KG was left off an all-nba team in his prime. So I'm not sure where you're getting this "no one ever put them in the same class" thing - unless what you mean to say is that Dirk was recognized as clearly superior by 2005?The Nowitzki-Garnett comparison is the most perplexing, because they played the same position, in the same era and when Garnett was in his prime, no one (outside of Mavs homers) ever put them in the same class. But now, after the fact, Nowitzki is suddenly superior? It makes no sense
Can Prime Dirk guard Prime Robinson? Of course not. He would put his nuts in his face after throwing down on him. Can Prime Robinson guard Prime Dirk? Of course he can. He's longer than Dirk, faster, quicker, more athletic... what have you.
I don't see why not. You're telling me you'd really take Kobe if you were drafting them, both in their rookie seasons? Remember, now... Kobe won't have Shaq on his team, or a loaded roster. You're picking the player that will have the biggest impact.I don't think Dave is better than Kobe...
where do you rank diggler on an all-time list ?
this offseason hasn't disappointed.
Dirk, rollin into the club, no trouble at the door, he and his entourage walking in like bosses, plopping down in the VIP section and chillin.
Robinson, getting stopped at the door by the bouncer, insisting "I'm on the list! My friend Tim Duncan got me on there!"
You see, that's where your interpretation is flawed.
Robinson was returning to pick up his jacket. He's been going to the VIP section since 1999.
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