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I think that in their careers if you swap Dirk with David, the Spurs are worse and the Mavs are better, yes.
...and be realistic about his status among other NBA greats.
Reading that "Top 100 players" players thread, some Spurs fans are starting to sound like disgruntled Jazz fans when they try to argue that Karl Malone is the greater player than Tim Duncan.
Let me start out with a disclaimer by saying that David Robinson is one of my favorite players of all-time, possibly the most athletic 7 footer we've ever seen, and easily a top 10 regular season player in history. But the reason he'll never get the respect his more devoted fans think he deserves is not because he failed to win a championship as the main guy (anyone with an IQ above 80 should understand that championships are team accomplishments), or because he was a victim of rewritten history, or because his most notable playoff moment was being thoroughly outplayed in his MVP season by Hakeem Olajuwon. It's because, year after year, even prior to the '95 Western Conference Finals, he never matched his regular season brilliance in the post-season.
Take the '93 WC Semis for example. The Spurs gave up decent 4th quarter leads in two straight games, the last of which concluded with a Barkley game winner that closed down Hemisphere Arena. In games 5 and 6, Robinson scored 24 and 22 points on .488 shooting. Those are simply not acceptable numbers for a player considered the best center in the league at the time, and especially against a team whose best interior defender was Oliver Miller.
Moving on to the '94 first round matchup with the Jazz. David was the regular season scoring champion and simply a machine that year on the offense end. Having homecourt advantage, the Spurs were heavy favorites against the Jazz. Robinson followed up his regular season dominance with a tepid 20 points-per-game average on a terrible .411 shooting percentage, including a truly abysmal 2-14 outing in a game 2. And like the Suns the year before, the Jazz had an average interior defense. This should've been Robinson's series to shine.
'95. We know what happened.
'96. After destroying the Suns in the first round, Robinson massively under performed in the Semis against the Jazz, including two straight 11 point games.
It's not an insult to David Robinson for him to be ranked anywhere from 25-30 on any given all-time greats lists. Nor is it an insult for Dirk to be ranked ahead of him.
Here's a thought experiment: Exchange Dirk for David on the '06 Mavs. Do any Spurs fans legitimately think a David Robinson led Mavs team beats San Antonio in the Western Conference Semifinals?
I think that in their careers if you swap Dirk with David, the Spurs are worse and the Mavs are better, yes.
I was with you up until this. Robinson's in the high-teens - early-twenties. And it absolutely is an insult for Nowitzki to be ranked ahead of him.
Why?
Even when you take away Robinson's non-prime years, Dirk's playoffs stats are still better.
Plus there's the part where Dirk never traded a chance at a championship away just so he could chase his teammate around with a bible.
Defense Defense Defense
But as stretch argued, Dirk's impact on the offensive end is greater than David' impact on the defensive end. And besides, once Rodman came along, it took an immense amount of pressure off David on the defensive end, enabling him to go wild offensively. So in the 94 and 95 seasons, David's defensive role was significantly reduced.
I could ing care less...
You mean, Nowitzki scored slightly more and did so slightly more efficiently. He sure didn't rebound, block shots or play defense at anywhere near the same rate. Funny how the only time those things don't matter is when they're applied to Nowitzki. No other player get's a free pass in those areas, no matter how good their offense is.
One clearly biased, defensive Mavs fan claims "Nowitzki's offense trumps Robinson's defense" and now it's the gospel? Even if it were true, Robinson was close enough to Nowitzki offensively, that the fact that he was vastly superior in almost every other area of the game gives him the edge. And actually, based on plenty of people's logic on this board, doesn't the fact that Robinson has two higher single season scoring averages than Nowitzki, automatically make him better offensively? Or does that only apply when it's convenient?
David was a pussy
now you're speaking my language....
Kobe is a pussy toonow you're speaking my language....
But not in the post-season. If regular season David consistently showed up in the playoffs, he s all over Dirk. But that was never the case. No scoring champ should go 20 and 10 on .411 against Felton Spencer. And yes, you can counter that no MVP should get ed by the 8th seeded Golden State Warriors, but Dirk had a great post-season run the year before, as well as plenty of other strong performances. Robinson didn't have one great season playoff campaign in his entire career. Not one.
lmao i still dont get where this idea that dirk doesnt rebound comes from
funny that he is one of like 4 people ever to average 25 and 10 in their entire playoff careers, yet all he does is score, and apparently isnt even that good at that according to gnsf
this right here
and that is a result of either him simply not being nearly as good as dirk offensively (as gnsf tries to claim he is nearly on par or superior), or being a flat out choker
Simply because Dirk's teams have always been stacked... you know with Mark Cuban's open wallet and all... (Dallas consistently had one of the highest salaries throughout the past decade)
David was a one man team, constantly doubled and triple teamed in every playoff series... unlike all other super star teams where this also happened, the Spurs' casts never made them pay for using that strategy against them...
Double Hakeem during their 2-Peat... the 3-pt bombers made you pay...
Double Shaq during that Lakers first three peat... Kobe goes bananas... or the 3-pt bombers made you pay...
Double Duncan during our recent contender run... Manu or Parker goes bananas... or the 3-pt bombers made you pay...
Double Nowitzki during their recent contender run... Finley/Nash/Terry goes bananas... or the 3-pt bombers made you pay...
see the trend?
Double Robinson prior to his injury in the playoffs... the rest of the team shriveled up... Strategy, keep doubling him...
suddenly sean elliott and other spurs players suck ass
funny how spurfan loves to twist that kind of to be convenient to their arguments
when arguing for timmy > kobe, they are quick to point out that timmy had no one on par with Pau at his side
then when it comes to the greatness of the spurs, suddenly manu > kobe in spurfan eyes
give it a break, gots.
and also funny how much spurfan tries to claim that terry completely sucks all kinds of ass and is a useless piece of , and nash is massively overrated and parker >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nash in every facet of the game, but suddenly they are capable of going bananas and great players
"sean elliott, vinny del negro, and chuck person couldnt shoot 3s for !!!! robinsons teams sucked, despite being top 10 in the league for several seasons on both offensive and defensive efficiency, it was all david robinson defending 5 on 1 and scoring 1 on 5!!!!!!!!"
Mav fan speculation... If you can find where I made any of those arguments (like Manu > Kobe, or Parker > Nash) feel free to keep going...
Completely neglect the Cuban factor at your own demise...
Dirk's teams have never "always been stacked." Their high payroll is due to the fact they overpay everyone. How much was Dampier making again? How much they pay a ty Antoine Walker?
And Spurfan trying to rewrite history by stating Robinson didn't have any help is the same thing Jazzfan does with Malone.
Chris Webber was a more clutch playoff performer than David Robinson.
True story.
yes, paying Tariq Abdul-Wahad $6mil a year to sit on the bench and do nothing, or paying Erick Dampier $10mil a year to average 6/7 automatically means money buys unmatchable talent and championships
Spurfan's "high payroll" argument is almost a new low for them
as an all-around basketball player, i will say 10 times out of 10, David Robinson was better. he was a more complete player than Dirk ever became.
but if I wanted to pick one guy to lead a team of role players, i will pick Dirk 10 times out of 10 over Robinson.
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