So Holder lied to congress...will they go after him like they did Nolan Ryan?

[Yonivore]

So instead of a liar, he just looks like a bumbling incompetent fool.

Sure had the President's foes apoplectic, didn't it?

President Obama has adopted most of President Bush's foreign policy agenda, with respect to the war on terror, the majority of which, I believe, was developed under the counsel of Alberto Gonzalez's Justice Department.

Some incompetent.

[Yonivore]

I think "lying" in this case requires a deliberate attempt at falsification.

On the "egg vs. pancake" lie; I think I could argue your "egg" answer was a deliberate lie because, you answered "egg" when it was "pancake."

In your response, if you used some rationale to arrive at "egg," like saying, "my wife usually has eggs for breakfast," or "Tuesday is egg day so, I'm pretty sure it was eggs," I think you're safe. But, in your example, you didn't do that. You simply answered "egg."

To just answer "egg," instead of saying "I don't know," or "I don't recall" when, in fact, you don't know or recall, is a lie.

It's the cer ude of your answer that gets you in trouble. On the other hand, being wrong, after demonstrating some rationale in arriving at the wrong answer, would work in your favor.

[Yonivore]

And, one more thing. I'm pretty sure they convicted Scooter Libby of lying to federal investigators after the claimed not to remember something.

[LnGrrrR]

President Obama has adopted most of President Bush's foreign policy agenda, with respect to the war on terror, the majority of which, I believe, was developed under the counsel of Alberto Gonzalez's Justice Department.

Some incompetent.

I don't see how it could've been developed under his counsel, since he seemingly didn't know anything about his job, or what his staff was doing. Developed in spite of him, perhaps.

[Wild Cobra]

And, one more thing. I'm pretty sure they convicted Scooter Libby of lying to federal investigators after the claimed not to remember something.

I still think that's because he knew Valarie by only one of three references about her. But... the liberals wanted someone convicted.

[LnGrrrR]

On the "egg vs. pancake" lie; I think I could argue your "egg" answer was a deliberate lie because, you answered "egg" when it was "pancake."

In your response, if you used some rationale to arrive at "egg," like saying, "my wife usually has eggs for breakfast," or "Tuesday is egg day so, I'm pretty sure it was eggs," I think you're safe. But, in your example, you didn't do that. You simply answered "egg."

To just answer "egg," instead of saying "I don't know," or "I don't recall" when, in fact, you don't know or recall, is a lie.

It's the cer ude of your answer that gets you in trouble. On the other hand, being wrong, after demonstrating some rationale in arriving at the wrong answer, would work in your favor.

Agreed. So, if I answered, "I'm not sure, but she probably had eggs" then I would likely be safe. I think the same applies to Holder's statement. If, as you stated, more evidence comes out that he saw it multiple times and there's no way he could have not known, then that changes the situation.

[Yonivore]

I don't see how it could've been developed under his counsel, since he seemingly didn't know anything about his job, or what his staff was doing. Developed in spite of him, perhaps.

Whatever you like; I don't think it matters one whit to Alberto Gonzalez. Holder has a real issue on his hands with this "gunwalking" scandal and, it's not likely to go away...no matter how hard you try and conflate his cir stances with those of the previous Attorney General.

Alberto Gonzalez, on the other hand, seems to be enjoying life again.

[TeyshaBlue]

Yeah, Clemens.

oops

Dammit. I want to see Ryan put congress in a headlock and pound the out of them.

[Yonivore]

Agreed. So, if I answered, "I'm not sure, but she probably had eggs" then I would likely be safe. I think the same applies to Holder's statement. If, as you stated, more evidence comes out that he saw it multiple times and there's no way he could have not known, then that changes the situation.

Well, we could get into the whole aspect of you're talking about what your wife had for breakfast versus what you had for breakfast.

If the question had been, when did President Obama first hear about the "Fast and Furious" gunwalking fiasco, you'd have a point. But, we're talking about Holder's first-hand knowledge of when he became aware. I think qualifying his "I'm not sure" with "probably a few weeks ago," is pretty weak.

[LnGrrrR]

Whatever you like; I don't think it matters one whit to Alberto Gonzalez. Holder has a real issue on his hands with this "gunwalking" scandal and, it's not likely to go away...no matter how hard you try and conflate his cir stances with those of the previous Attorney General.

Not trying to conflate. Just saying, on the basis of what Holder said and the evidence revealed so far, I don't think it's enough to convict him of lying.

Alberto Gonzalez, on the other hand, seems to be enjoying life again.

What's he doing now? Working somewhere else where he has no clue what's going on?

[Yonivore]

Of course, antics like this aren't helping the administration's case...

CBS News Reporter Says White House Screamed, Swore at Her Over Fast and Furious

CBS News investigative journalist Sharyl Attkisson -- who's been covering the scandal from the beginning -- says in an interview on the Laura Ingraham Show today that the White House and Justice Department have taken to screaming at her for reporting on the story.

[LnGrrrR]

If the question had been, when did President Obama first hear about the "Fast and Furious" gunwalking fiasco, you'd have a point. But, we're talking about Holder's first-hand knowledge of when he became aware. I think qualifying his "I'm not sure" with "probably a few weeks ago," is pretty weak.

I agree it's pretty weak. But since his statement was so wishy-washy, I don't think you can get him on lying, unless you could produce enough evidence that it would have been damn near impossible to not be aware of the situation.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Can you quote the specific lie? And if its the part where he says "probably" and "I'm not sure" then you need to punch yourself in the face.

Its obvious lawyer speak but that is the whole point of it, you create plausible deniability. Keep on parroting GOP spin though please.

Really what should happen is the head of the ATF and the direct supervisors of the program need to be fired. This criminality nonsense trying to pin it on political opponents is just two party political nonsense.

Its precisely that type of approach and you giving credence to it that makes me think you are unable to come up with an original thought.

One thing that is troubling is that they are going to such desperate measures because it implies that they have very little real intelligence on the cartels. Its also obvious by the cartels attacks on journalists and bloggers that they want to keep it that way.

I have a solution. Decriminalize drugs but the law and order crowd that you and your GOP mouthpieces normally side with are waging a massive campaign to prevent. I for example still want to know where the figure of 20% of Americans smoke pot comes from other than the fraternal order of police mouthpieces.

Regardless you keep on turning on your own. it just makes me realize that having only two groups to represent this country is a ing joke.

[Yonivore]

I agree it's pretty weak. But since his statement was so wishy-washy, I don't think you can get him on lying, unless you could produce enough evidence that it would have been damn near impossible to not be aware of the situation.

Fair enough; I think we've beaten the dead horse.

[LnGrrrR]

Fair enough; I think we've beaten the dead horse.

To be honest, I'm pretty sure the horse died at the egg/pancake analogy.

[Yonivore]

Can you quote the specific lie? And if its the part where he says "probably" and "I'm not sure" then you need to punch yourself in the face.

Its obvious lawyer speak but that is the whole point of it, you create plausible deniability. Keep on parroting GOP spin though please.

Really what should happen is the head of the ATF and the direct supervisors of the program need to be fired. This criminality nonsense trying to pin it on political opponents is just two party political nonsense.

You make a good point, Fuzzy. It just so happens, DOJ has reassigned the ATF agents, in charge of Fast and Furious, to inaccessible jobs in Washington -- which, as I understand it, resulted in pay raises. Only whistleblowers have suffered any punishment.

Another brick in the wall making it look more and more like a coverup. Not to mention all the stalling on FOIA requests, Friday night information dumps, etc...

Its precisely that type of approach and you giving credence to it that makes me think you are unable to come up with an original thought.

One thing that is troubling is that they are going to such desperate measures because it implies that they have very little real intelligence on the cartels. Its also obvious by the cartels attacks on journalists and bloggers that they want to keep it that way.

I have a solution. Decriminalize drugs but the law and order crowd that you and your GOP mouthpieces normally side with are waging a massive campaign to prevent. I for example still want to know where the figure of 20% of Americans smoke pot comes from other than the fraternal order of police mouthpieces.

Regardless you keep on turning on your own. it just makes me realize that having only two groups to represent this country is a ing joke.

Okay, way to run off the rails there.

[Yonivore]

To be honest, I'm pretty sure the horse died at the egg/pancake analogy.

Quite possibly but, continuing to beat it, we did.

[LnGrrrR]

You make a good point, Fuzzy. It just so happens, DOJ has reassigned the ATF agents, in charge of Fast and Furious, to inaccessible jobs in Washington -- which, as I understand it, resulted in pay raises. Only whistleblowers have suffered any punishment.

It's funny, but Obama was all about whistleblowers when he was campaigning. Then, when he gets into office, he is worse than Bush when it comes to protecting whistleblowers. Pretty pathetic.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Okay, way to run off the rails there.

Everything i wrote has to do with the subject matter here. That you have to stay on rails to keep up is the most telling. You need to be spoonfed your politics.

[Yonivore]

Everything i wrote has to do with the subject matter here. That you have to stay on rails to keep up is the most telling. You need to be spoonfed your politics.

Now you're going all boutons on me. Nice.

Whether or not your extended comments in the post were germane to the discussion is not your determination, alone, to make. But, damn it, I defend to the death your right to be irrelevant.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Now you're going all boutons on me. Nice.

Whether or not your extended comments in the post were germane to the discussion is not your determination, alone, to make. But, damn it, I defend to the death your right to be irrelevant.

There is a reason that I treat the both of you the same.

You have your little crusade that you got from a GOP mouthpiece to witchhunt for a democrat. You need to eat your feedback. You alone are not the one who gets to decide what is discussed. you are just upset because I went on a course that was not your witchunt.

[Yonivore]

There is a reason that I treat the both of you the same.

You obviously misunderstood the boutons reference.

You have your little crusade that you got from a GOP mouthpiece to witchhunt for a democrat. You need to eat your feedback. You alone are not the one who gets to decide what is discussed. you are just upset because I went on a course that was not your witchunt.

I'm not upset. In fact, I'm not even sure on what course you are embarked. But, carry on.

[baseline bum]

Dammit. I want to see Ryan put congress in a headlock and pound the out of them.

[boutons_deux]

AP sources: Bush-era probe involved guns 'walking'

By PETE YOST, Associated Press – 6 hours ago

WASHINGTON (AP) — The federal government under the Bush administration ran an operation that allowed hundreds of guns to be transferred to suspected arms traffickers — the same tactic that congressional Republicans have criticized President Barack Obama's administration for using, two federal law enforcement officials said Tuesday.

Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., Sen. Chuck Grassley, R-Iowa, and other Republicans have been hammering the Obama Justice Department over the practice known as "letting guns walk." The congressional target has been Operation Fast and Furious, which was designed to track small-time gun buyers at several Phoenix-area gun shops up the chain to make cases against major weapons traffickers. In the process, federal agents lost track of many of the more than 2,000 guns linked to the operation.

When Bush, a Republican, was president, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives in Tucson, Ariz., used a similar enforcement tactic in a program it called Operation Wide Receiver. The fact that there were two such ATF investigations years apart in separate administrations raises the possibility that agents in still other cases may have allowed guns to "walk."

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...82e04b303ad45c

====

Come on, Yoni, tell how it's ok when your lover boy dubya does it, but we gotta imprison Barry's guys.

[Jamtas#2]

I nominate the congressman/congresswoman who has not been involved in deceiving the american public to lead the questioning here

Love the outrage they have when they are lied to - don't tend to buy the "i don't recall" or "technically speaking..." arguments when used on them huh?