They probably shouldn't, given how Kidd made 43 3pters on 37.4% shooting in the playoffs, while Marion scores 12 points per game.
Chandler was the defensive anchor, and still averaged 8 ppg on 58% shooting.
Of course, there is the turtle, shooting 44% from 3 and making 42 of them, averaging 17.5 ppg.
Compare that to Robinson's teammates in the 95 playoffs. Sean Elliott was the one making the most 3pters in the playoffs at 20, a PG who made none, a SG shooting 43% from the field on wide open jumpers. Yeah, I would double off of Avery Johnson, Vinny Del Negro, Dennis Rodman and Sean Elliott (maybe on the last one), before I double off of Marion, Kidd, Terry and Chandler, no question.
I mean, it's not like Mav fans have not given up their hope of Dirk being the #1 guy leading the them to the promised land:
But then after 1 le when everything fell into place, Dirk is this irreplaceable player that is most definitely a number 1 option because he couldn't be guarded in the playoffs.
The End.
Interesting, because in the 95 playoffs Del Negro shot over 45% from three, and Avery averaged 15ppg on 52% shooting.
Dennis Rodman was a defensive and rebounding anchor, and still averaged 9 ppg on 54% shooting.
Those three guys stats looks pretty comparable, if not superior to the Mavs supporting players this postseason.
And there was Sean Elliott, putting up a comparable 17.3 ppg.
@ you trying to downplay them, when statistically the supporting cast of the 94-95 Spurs were extremely comparable to the supporting cast of the 10-11 Mavericks. Two can play that game, because the Mavs sported 2 guys who were known as career chokers (Marion/Terry), two very undersized shooting guards (Terry/Barea), a PG who cant beat Shaquille O'Neal off the dribble (Kidd), a center who cant score any points off anything other than a wide open dunk (Chandler), and a SF who is incapable of defending a drunk re (Peja).
In the playoffs, both teams sported 3 guys who averaged double digits, and 4 more guys who averaged more than 6ppg.
The Spurs had 2 guys average double digit rebounds (Davey being one of them, Rodman being the other), and the Mavs had none.
Spurs also had a PG who racked up a higher APG average than the Mavs PG(Avery over Kidd)
Quit being a moron and trying to downplay the supporting cast of that Spurs squad. They weren't nearly as bad as you suggest, and quite comparable to the Mavs. Remember, few people thought the Mavs supporting cast was very good either, until they won a le. So what is the biggest difference between these two teams? Obviously it's not the supporting casts, as it was just proven how close they actually are.
Rather, its the fact that Dirk kicked ass in the playoffs, while Robinson choked on . When things got tough and odds stacked against the Mavs, Dirk stepped up by helping improve the play of his teammates, while Davey didnt (and chased people around with bibles instead)
Dirk > Davey
go yourself
pulling up posts from 2 and a half years ago
is that all you got?
not to mention what is often considered one of the better frontlines in NBA history, in Odom, Gasol, and Bynum, all taking turns at Dirk and failing miserably in the process
level of compe ion is not a legit argument
kobe, durant, lebron, and wade didnt guard dirk. The lakers front line was ty and let jjb parade to the rim. B
not to mention what is often considered one of the better frontlines in NBA history, in Odom, Gasol, and Bynum, all taking turns at Dirk and failing miserably in the process
level of compe ion is not a legit argument
Seriosuly, dirk would stand no chance against dream in 94/95 either. That and he's at 2-1 with no quad-dub.
kobe, durant, lebron, and wade didnt guard dirk. The lakers front line was ty and let jjb parade to the rim. B
Seriosuly, dirk would stand no chance against dream in 94/95 either. That and he's at 2-1 with no quad-dub.
okay
Making 9 of them?
Avery Johnson has always been great in layups. Still couldn't nail an outside shot to open up the lane for any post player though.
Defensive anchor who left Horry to have his breakout party? He certainly didn't do too well in the Rockets series. And why would he average 9ppg on 54% shooting on top of being the defensive and rebounding anchor, I thought he gave up because Robinson chased him with a Bible.
Making 9 3pters is similar to making 42, making 0 3pters is similar to making 43. Sure.
Sean was good in that series, if he wasn't torched by Drexler on the other end. Sean was great most playoffs, he just wasn't well matched against Drexler, not to mention Bob Hill's "defensive" schemes didn't really help him.
You mentioned about doubling off players, and when the other team double off a teams post player, the supporting cast was supposed to nail open shots. Kidd, Marion, Terry did that, Avery Johnson, Vinny Del Negro did not (Sean did too).
Yet one team have four players making more than 1 3pter per game and shooting over 37%, the other had one (Doc Rivers made 17 3pters in 15 games right on 37% shooting).
Great, I can see how this relates to double teams.
I can again see how this relates to double teams.
The biggest difference is that one supporting casts was actually built to hide the weakness of their best player, while the other doesn't. The Spurs had good players, Avery Johnson, Dennis Rodman and Sean Elliott were at least average (I actually believe Elliott is one of the best SF in the league during that time), just that their games do not compliment Robinson's.
Robinson needs outside shooting, it was not a surprise, everyone knew it. In fact, the Spurs got Chuck Person and Dale Ellis just because of that, too bad both of them were way over the hill when they joined the Spurs. Off the top of my head, I cannot think of one single dominant inside player who won without good outside shooting in the modern game. Jabbar had Magic, Hakeem had Drexler/Maxwell, Smith, Elie, Horry and Cassell, Shaq had Kobe, Duncan had Horry/Kerr/Elie/Jacksons/Manu.
Two things Robinson needed but never had, and that's consistent outside shooting, and a reliable PF to do the dirty work for him. Rodman was supposed to be the answer to need #2, but he wilted at the most important time.
Dirk had a team built to his needs. He had a floor general to dictate the offense in Kidd, he had a defensive anchor to hide his defensive shortcomings in Chandler, he had a reliable 2nd option in turtle, and he had a perimeter defender in Marion.
Dirk kicked ass because he was empowered to do it. He choked in 06, choked 07, what suddenly made him so much better, despite you yourself labelling him past his prime? He got the teammates he needed.Rather, its the fact that Dirk kicked ass in the playoffs, while Robinson choked on . When things got tough and odds stacked against the Mavs, Dirk stepped up by helping improve the play of his teammates, while Davey didnt (and chased people around with bibles instead
Robinson never did get those teammates. Look at Robinson's rookie year when he had Rod Strickland, a healthy Terry mings and Willie Anderson was still decent, Robinson played as well in the playoffs as he did in the regular season.
Hey, if you lack arguments, go to insults.
Last edited by ambchang; 10-05-2011 at 05:53 PM.
So what, Dirk found the fountain of youth?
pulling up posts from 2 and a half years ago
is that all you got?
He was past his prime 2.5 years ago! And all of a sudden, he is now worthy of being #1 leading the team to the promised land! Yeah!
Mav fan logic:
Dirk is past his prime 2.5 years ago, and no longer good enough to be the #1 on a championship team, but as time passed, he got younger and reached his 2nd prime, good enough to be a #1.
This just in, Rodman played fantastic with the Mavs and the Lakers, when nobody hit him on the head with a bible.
Actually, Robinson was well regarded within the league all the way up till he had two career-altering injuries. But hey, what do you know? You don't even know basketball.
It's so funny you are adding nothing to this discussion. Thanks for shedding comedy to this thread by letting us laugh at you.
My vote is for ambchang
It is just sad how fans just cannot get over the fact that basketball is a team game. People label Jordan as the #1 of all time, but he couldn't win squat before he had a team built around him. He had a great perimeter defender and floor general in Pippen who wouldn't get in the way, he had fantastic outside shooting undersized SGs who rarely makes mistakes (Armstrong, Paxson, Kerr), he had strong interior defenders (Cartwright, Grant, Rodman), he had some decent passing/shooting big man perfect for the triangle (Wellington, Longley).
Before these players (and expansion destroying the Pistons), Jordan couldn't go too far in the playoffs. He shot 43.6% in the 85 playoffs and 41.7% in the 87 playoffs. He didn't choke in those playoffs, it was simply the other teams deciding to leave his teammates open and crowd Jordan.
I actually thought, out of all people, Mav fans would understand this simple concept, this concept that basketball is a team game, better than any other fan base in the world because their God Dirk Nowitzki was once dragged through the mud for underperforming in the playoffs through no fault of his own, but I guess I am putting too much faith in people who have consistently acted like 15 year olds.
It's definitely a sports fan fallacy. A player who isn't good enough to accomplish something the better part of their career, even when it's known they are past their true prime, accomplishes said event and now become better than they ever were.
No might to it, you definitely are.
Three. You forgot about Dirk himself.
explain why Tim Duncan > Karl Malone
maybe if Davey helped him get more shots he would have made more
hm, pretty much like Shawn Marion, completely useless offensively unless taking layups/dunks. wash
still put up 9 and 14 or whatever. better than chandlers 8 and 8, since stats matter so much to you. or do they? make up your mind, instead of just twisting it to fit your argument, and your argument only. wash again
im sorry that they had a comparable supporting cast, but werent able to play enough playoff games due to the fact that the Spurs did not have a good enough leader to help his teammates be more effective and be able to succeed more to have more opportunities.
kinda like Terry getting torched by Brandon Roy, Dwayne Wade, and James Harden. wash
statistically, it shows they did. again, make up your mind, stats or no stats? either way, i have a hard time believing they could have multiple guys averaging double digit scoring if they cant hit an open shot.
There are other ways to score than just hitting 3s. not sure why you have such an obsession with hitting 3s. there have been plenty of championship teams that didnt have to have 10 different players hitting 3s like you are suggesting is neccesary. If Davey knew how to pass the ball out correctly, instead of turning it over 4 times a game, maybe Del Negro would have had a few more 3s.
double teams were never even the point of discussion or the reason why i pulled these stats. the point is, that Robinson got more help than you would like to admit.
And this proves my point exactly. Dirk is a superior clutch player and leader. Thanks for playing, dumbass. I'm not going to waste time on the rest of your post, because its a bunch of horse that I didn't and wont bother reading. But I hope you enjoyed typing it all out, despite the fact that you just proved my exact point right and didn't even realize it.
of course it is.
Because Karl Malone had one of the best coaches in the history of the league along with the #2 PG, and still couldn’t make it. He had his chances against a Jordanless league, twice, and he lost both times.
He had outside shooters opening up the lane for him time and time again in Stockton, Jeff Malone and Jeff Hornacek, but he never made it.
Duncan had great teammates as well, but was his wings on the caliber of Malone in 99 and 03? No way, not even close. Jaren Jackson, Mario Elie, Steve Kerr, and Stephen Jackson, as much as I love them, is not on the same level as Malone’s wings in terms of nailing outside shots.
So in other words, the difference was that Timmy won, and Karl lost. Why? Because Karl wasn't anywhere CLOSE to being as good of a team leader as Tim Duncan. Many people argue that he actually might have had a better skillset and was a more naturally talented and gifted player. However, he had his chances and pissed them away. Timmy had his chances and made the best of them, multiple times.
And I like how you pick and choose when comparing teammates, but don't like to pick and choose when looking at other teammates and opponents faced, or the situations going on, such as the strike in 99, having Robinson at his side, and facing some weak-ass compe ion. Also in 2003, facing an unhealthy, imploding Lakers squad, as well as a Dirk-less Mavericks, and LMAO nets. Don't forget he had the help of Parker and Ginobili by 2003. They might not have been as good as they were come 2005 and 2007, but they were still KEY parts of that Spurs championship team.
If you are going to do this pick-and-choose garbage, then look at it from all aspects, or don't do it at all.
Anyways, I'm a 100% believer that Timmy >>>>>>>> Malone as well. But I just love how much you pick and choose , as well as your revisionist history that Timmy took a squad of simply Mario Elie, Stephen Jackson, Steve Kerr, and Jaren Jackson to a le, forgetting the assistance of Robinson, Avery, Elliott, Manu, and Parker in those years as well. Kinda like how just to fit your ridiculous 95 Spurs argument, a team that won 62 games suddenly completely sucked astronomical amounts of ass, and all 62 games were won entirely at the hands of David Robinson going 1-on-5 against everyone. Cut that out, and debate logically, instead of twisting and making up just to fit your argument.
Maybe you should watch the games again. I did.
The other parts are then linked.
Del Negro was consistently passing up wide open shots, and clanking them when he took them. Then on defense, he was burned by whoever he was guarding, every single time. I can’t fault him though, Del Negro was known to be a bad defender.
As ugly as Marion’s shot is, he still made more than 1 single three pointer in his entire playoff career.
In fact, he nailed 63, making 33% of them. Sure, all of those were done during his Suns days, and Carlisle obviously reined him in when he was playing for the Mavs, but Marion was an outside threat, and can make a 3 pter if need be.
Avery Johnson made 1 3 pter his entire playoff career out of 16 tries. That’s 6% (No, not 60%, 6%, as in 0.06)
Of course stats matter, he scored 8 pts in the paint, great, he didn’t open up the lane for Robinson, just like Chandler didn’t open up the lane for Dirk. But guess what? Kidd, turtle, and a bunch of other Mavs did.
I can go with a Terry and Elliott wash. In fact, I think 95 Elliott was better than 11Terry. So?
Because big man requires an open lane, and if a player cannot nail outside shots, the lane is closed. Duncan saw it in 01, 02 and 04, Hakeem saw it in the early 90’s/late 80’s, Kareem saw that in the late 70’s.
See above. I am not sure why this is such a hard concept to understand. Big man works in the paint, if you do not have shooters to open up the lane for you, defense crowds the lane and dares you to shoot open jumpers (that will clank).
Are you Stretch, or did somebody hack into your account?
Apparently, you didn’t bother reading your own posts either.
Hey, and thanks for resorting to insults and backtracking, first rate arguments.
Coles Notes:
Stretch – Dirk > Davey because Dirk draws double teams while Robinson chokes
Ambchang – Robinson’s teammates suck at shooting open shots
Stretch – Double team is not the point of discussion.
more picking and choosing
i dont have any more time to waste on this. you are set in your ways, im set in mine, and obviously nothing either one of us says will change each others viewpoint, which is perfectly fine. ill just stick to the fact that mattered most.
Dirk as the true #1 - rang
Davey as the true #1 - never sniffed the finals
Dirk > Davey
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