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  1. #101
    O & 44!!! Now, go back &
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    Tim Duncan is more clutch from the 3 against the Suns
    Thank Christ.

  2. #102
    Drive for Five! ambchang's Avatar
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    1. "primes" are kind of hard to define. I was following your example more than my own. You kind of painted the picture that Manu and Parker's prime was after Tim's. Kobe did not truly hit his prime until the 3peat. Not that he was not running the offense, or instrumental but that was when his game became more complete. IF we are using your argument "well the perimeter rules benefited the players after ... " then wouldn't that APPLY TO EVERY SEASON of MANU's AND TONY's career? since they came in to prominence AFTER the rules were changed to benefit perimeter players? Especially tony who is one of the fastest players in the NBA?
    Oh yes, the rules benefitted Parker big time, because it’s a rule that benefits quick perimeter players. I firmly believe that without the rules, Parker would have been an average PG at best, and no where near the Finals MVP and all-star level player he became. It didn’t benefit Manu as much because of his unorthodox style, I think, but I still think there is some benefit to it.

    But yes, Tim’s prime, and primes in general, are hard to define, I am not sure if I should put 05-07 as Tim’s prime, and I actually think his absolute prime was 99 to 03.

    As for Kobe, he hit his prime in around 02 or so, his game didn’t actually became complete, ever. He still have questionable shot selection, and he still tries to take over a game when he really shouldn’t. But he pretty much is as dominant back in 02 as he is now, and everywhere in between. You can argue his absolute prime was 04 to 07, maybe even up to 09, but then again, you see how even God Kobe can suffer with horrible teammates.

    2. What "loaded" front-courts did the Spurs face? How tall is Ben Wallace? How loaded are they if he can't score? Wallace, wallace and Prince provided great length (much like the Lakers) but loaded? the Lakers had Shaq Horry and a bunch of stiffs were they loaded? The knicks without Ewing ... were they loaded? New Jersey ran out Aaron williams, Kmart and that big white guy was that front-court loaded too? How about amare and diaw? Maybe Verejao and big Z is a loaded front-court?

    Maybe they were more decent big men spread out in the early part of the decade but the spurs did not have to beat many "loaded" from courts to win the West or win the le ...
    The Wallace brothers were without a doubt the best defensive combo in the league over the last decade, maybe just slightly less so than the 99 Spurs. But yes, the rest of the front court sucked, but that is not the point of the argument, because Kobe having a loaded front court (compared to the compe ion) is akin to Tim having a loaded backcourt. The frontcourt for Kobe is support, but Duncan’s support is his backcourt. I know it sounds confusing, but Tim and Kobe plays totally different positions, and the supporting system around them are totally different as a result.

    In that case, the Spurs did face some decent backcourt. As good as the Parker Manu backcourt was, I don’t think it was exceptional compared to the Kobe, Wade backcourts. In 03, the Spurs backcourt was relatively pedestrian (though clutch).

    Look, as I said before Duncan was the man. I dont take that away but yall try to overstate things to improve his resume ...same with David but it's not necessary they are both great. This is not specifically directed at you, but the posts here in the forum lately.
    I personally think Robinson is one of the most underrated players of all-time, people paint him as a choker, and I guess throughout the years, I just got used to the general ignorance and laziness of people to paint a story. I am not sure which one is appalling, the sportswriter who came up with this crap to destroy a great players legacy to sell a story, or the supposed fans ignorant enough to lap it up and take it as facts. Robinson have always had teammates that other teams can easily double off of, and does not have to pay, and those teammates happen to be the two most responsible for nailing outside shots, PG and SG. His only reliable sidekick throughout his prime was Sean Elliott, and as much as I love Elliott (probably one of my favourite 5 players of all time), he was no Kobe, he was no Clyde, he was no Pippen, and he was no McHale. My main frustrations is with Mavs fans, because Dirk went through the exact same thing as Robinson, but he was given a chance to redeem himself by having a perfect team (in retrospect) built around him, Robinson never had that chance as he only had 6 healthy seasons.

    As for Duncan, I think he is about correctly rated, greatest PF of all time, top 10 of all time, slightly ahead of/same as / slightly behind Shaq in the #7 to #10 spot. I like to give Duncan the upper hand because he is a Spur, and also because he is just much more versatile on both offense and defense. People pick Shaq because of his sheer dominance, and I have no issues with that. As for Kobe, I just never saw him being ahead of Duncan, he is slightly, but clearly behind Duncan. He is in the marginal top 10 of all time, and there is no shame in there. He has proven to be the best sidekick in the history of the league, and he has proven to be a competent #1 when given the right team. He was not as easy to build around as either Duncan or Shaq (building a great frontcourt is always harder than building a great backcourt, just because there are less skilled big men), and he has never been the defensive center of the Lakers.

  3. #103
    ambchang is my bitch Daddy_Of_All_Trolls's Avatar
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    LOL, after beaten to the ground with those 6 arguments you raised, you went back to say that arguments are arguable.

    Kobe being a #2 isn’t a fact, it’s a general opinion. Just as Kobe co-sharing the #1 isn’t a fact, it’s an opinion. There are no arguments in the world that would quantifiably state that Kobe and Shaq shared the #1 or Kobe was the definitive #2, but it’s a generally held opinion that Kobe was the clear #2 all the way up to 2003.

    Your video “evidence” was a snip shot of the game, and unless you go through each and every possession of how many times all the Lakers perimeter players opened up due to double teams on Shaq, and how many times Kobe created his own shot vs. benefitting from double teams off of Shaq, they are no prove, they are just snipshots of highlights taken out of context to satisfy your own agenda.

    I am not exactly sure what you want to argue in this case, because you may have noticed, you stated explicated that you do not want to debate with me, but then you have continuously done so. What is it then? You want to talk about leading sentences? Is your whole point of this argument about you not wanting to debate with me? Stay consistent with your approach, either you are arguing against your own standards, or you are acting hypocritically against the standards you have set for yourself.

    On a totally unrelated topic from your point of view, Kobe made 168, 187 and 137 FTM in the 01, 01 and 03 playoffs, while Shaq had 191, 203 and 121 (out of 12 games). Players like Fisher, Horry and Fox benefitted off of Shaq double teams, and a player like Kobe, while being able to create his own shot, also benefitted from it. I am not exactly sure where you would say that Kobe creating his own shot meant that he was a co#1. Pippen created his own shot, does that make him a co#1? And to pull out some weak videos claiming it’s some sort of proof is just purely laughable.
    So says the guy with no credibility due to his consistent demonstration of lack of reading comprehension, including the thread linked at the bottom of my signature. Hey, don't fret, people everywhere don't read threads. I made a recent post at a Mercedes Benz forum trying to get help for a recent car problem. I outlined, in bullet form, the things I had tried to rectify the situation with. First reply I got, some guy asked me if I tried something I had already pointed out didn't work! so, plenty of dumbasses out there.

    Also, you miss the gist of my video evidence. To my knowledge, this is the only time anyone ever examined a video to determine if Kobe scored easy points off Shaq double and triple teams, or not. In other words, to PROVE fact over opinion, every game they played would have to be examined. This short random sample is no proof at all, but it did demonstrate one thing convincingly in it's short random sample: The Spurs played horrible help defense; other players should have been doubling Shaq, not Kobe's man.

    All I was trying to say with my posts, other than those that are intentionally insulting you, was that if someone examined enough Kobe and Shaq's videos in detail, a realistic and statistically significant conclusion could be made whether or not Kobe was a sidekick. It would seem to me, either a Kobe lover or hater would be happy to try, because proving it would be very sweet. You don't seem to want to do it. Maybe someone else will someday.

    See, I understand the love/hate for Kobe and Tim, especially on this forum. As I have said before, Kobe lovers overrate him, and Kobe haters underrate him. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. Same goers for Tim. you can't compare these two players other than by opinion mainly because they play different positions. Tim may be the better players by the common logic that generally Big men are more valuable than small guys. Really, it doesn't matter who is better, both men have legacies that are secure.

    Check my recent posts, I gave a compelling argument who the biggest sidekick in NBA playoff history is, and it's Bill Russell. How often was he the number one offensive option? Try never. He grabbed rebounds, and Bob Cousy ran the break with his passing abilities. Boston didn't win because of Russell, they won because their coach was miles ahead of the compe ion, and their teams were stacked, far more than what LeBron, Wade, and Bosh just tried to form. However, revisionist historians have vaulted Bill pretty much to the top of the list of all time greats. He wasn't, period. He would be just another player in today's NBA. MJ, Wilt, Kareem, Oscar, Dr.J., Baylor, etc could thrive in any era. Put Timmy in the early 1950's and he's the GOAT for at least 30 years.

  4. #104
    5-5 Deuce Bigalow's Avatar
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    Kobe never won a playoff series without an AS big man.

    Went to the Finals in 2008

  5. #105
    5-5 Deuce Bigalow's Avatar
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    Not true, look up the stats. Duncan and Manu was equal on offense, and Duncan still manned the defense.



    You can make an argument here, but as a sidekick, Duncan was nowhere close to the four I mentioned. 07 Duncan simply wasn't as good as 02 Kobe, early 80's Magic, mid 80s McHale or 90's Pippen.

    Some players are just born to be sidekicks, Duncan wasn't one of them.
    Manu was much better offense, and tim duncan was busy getting dunked on defense

  6. #106
    Deandre Jordan Sucks m>s's Avatar
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    Sorry, Dave > Dirk
    the stump persistently being wrong

  7. #107
    Deandre Jordan Sucks m>s's Avatar
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    Went to the Finals in 2008
    went to the finals in 08 with the new signing of pau who was without a doubt an all-star player at that time

  8. #108
    5-5 Deuce Bigalow's Avatar
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    went to the finals in 08 with the new signing of pau who was without a doubt an all-star player at that time


    Gasol did not make the All-Star team or an All-NBA team in 2007-08 and in 2006-07

  9. #109
    Deandre Jordan Sucks m>s's Avatar
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    Gasol did not make the All-Star team or an All-NBA team in 2007-08 and in 2006-07
    can't argue against it however the bag Yao made it EVERY year throughout his whole pitiful career and he was indeed a good player

  10. #110
    O & 44!!! Now, go back &
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    Gasol did not make the All-Star team or an All-NBA team in 2007-08 and in 2006-07
    Nor did Gasol win a single playoff game till Kobe took him in.

  11. #111
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
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    Nor did Gasol win a single playoff game till Kobe took him in.
    Kobe is to Pau's success as Watson was to Edison's.

  12. #112
    Drive for Five! ambchang's Avatar
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    So says the guy with no credibility due to his consistent demonstration of lack of reading comprehension, including the thread linked at the bottom of my signature. Hey, don't fret, people everywhere don't read threads. I made a recent post at a Mercedes Benz forum trying to get help for a recent car problem. I outlined, in bullet form, the things I had tried to rectify the situation with. First reply I got, some guy asked me if I tried something I had already pointed out didn't work! so, plenty of dumbasses out there.
    Yeah, arguing over 6 specific points on a basketball forum over talking about whether arguments is arguable is definite lack of reading comprehension. Speaking of which, why are you still arguing with me? You have specifically said you do not want to debate with me in your first leading sentence. And I am well aware of the fact that you like to dictate what specifically an argument is about when it was you who respond to my post.

    Also, you miss the gist of my video evidence. To my knowledge, this is the only time anyone ever examined a video to determine if Kobe scored easy points off Shaq double and triple teams, or not. In other words, to PROVE fact over opinion, every game they played would have to be examined. This short random sample is no proof at all, but it did demonstrate one thing convincingly in it's short random sample: The Spurs played horrible help defense; other players should have been doubling Shaq, not Kobe's man.
    So the gist of your video is to demonstrate how Kobe have scored points without the help of doubles and triples off Shaq. Great! So what? How does that show that he is not the #2 on his team? Why are you bringing short random samples that are, in your own words, “no proof at all” into this? Stop wasting my time and get to the point of your original premise, and that is Kobe was not a sidekick to Shaq.

    Please feel free to skip over the FGM in my previous post as proof to Shaq being the top dog. Because we all know you are great at reading things.

    All I was trying to say with my posts, other than those that are intentionally insulting you, was that if someone examined enough Kobe and Shaq's videos in detail, a realistic and statistically significant conclusion could be made whether or not Kobe was a sidekick. It would seem to me, either a Kobe lover or hater would be happy to try, because proving it would be very sweet. You don't seem to want to do it. Maybe someone else will someday.
    A few minutes of video is a realistic and statistically significant sample for 3 years worth of games? Which planet did you came from?
    With your amazing reading comprehension, it should be noted that the original point of this thread is not to argue whether Kobe was a sidekick to Shaq during the 3 peat, it is an established assumption, but the assertion is who is the best of all the sidekicks.
    See, I understand the love/hate for Kobe and Tim, especially on this forum. As I have said before, Kobe lovers overrate him, and Kobe haters underrate him. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. Same goers for Tim. you can't compare these two players other than by opinion mainly because they play different positions. Tim may be the better players by the common logic that generally Big men are more valuable than small guys. Really, it doesn't matter who is better, both men have legacies that are secure.
    I am not sure where you are going with this? Oh wait! You come up with your own rules, you can go on a random diatribe about something to do with nothing whenever you please.

    Check my recent posts, I gave a compelling argument who the biggest sidekick in NBA playoff history is, and it's Bill Russell. How often was he the number one offensive option? Try never. He grabbed rebounds, and Bob Cousy ran the break with his passing abilities. Boston didn't win because of Russell, they won because their coach was miles ahead of the compe ion, and their teams were stacked, far more than what LeBron, Wade, and Bosh just tried to form. However, revisionist historians have vaulted Bill pretty much to the top of the list of all time greats. He wasn't, period. He would be just another player in today's NBA. MJ, Wilt, Kareem, Oscar, Dr.J., Baylor, etc could thrive in any era. Put Timmy in the early 1950's and he's the GOAT for at least 30 years.
    So after a whole bunch of something about nothing, you finally came back to topic. Russell is a good candidate depending on how you measure #2s. However, the Celtics were known for revolutionising the game through defense and fastbreaks, both of which relies on the defense and rebounding of Russell.
    Last edited by ambchang; 10-12-2011 at 01:31 PM.

  13. #113
    Banned Stalin's Avatar
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  14. #114
    I Make Love To Pressure MR.SILVER&BLack's Avatar
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    this deserves its own thread

  15. #115
    ambchang is my bitch Daddy_Of_All_Trolls's Avatar
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    Yeah, arguing over 6 specific points on a basketball forum over talking about whether arguments is arguable is definite lack of reading comprehension. Speaking of which, why are you still arguing with me? You have specifically said you do not want to debate with me in your first leading sentence. And I am well aware of the fact that you like to dictate what specifically an argument is about when it was you who respond to my post.

    Yeah, and not reading the thread linked in my signature thus making the wrong conclusions further proved you lack reading comprehension, Dumbass. I should say why are you arguing with me? Maybe this thread needs to be about David Hassellhoff, it took a gif of him to shut you up in the other thread you wanted the last word in.
    So the gist of your video is to demonstrate how Kobe have scored points without the help of doubles and triples off Shaq. Great! So what? How does that show that he is not the #2 on his team? Why are you bringing short random samples that are, in your own words, “no proof at all” into this? Stop wasting my time and get to the point of your original premise, and that is Kobe was not a sidekick to Shaq.

    Dumbass, It shows he wasn't a sidekick. Jordan and Pippen were number 1 and number 2. So were Shaq and Kobe, But the gap is close with the latter. not with the former. You act as if all #1's are #2's are equal. they aren't. Huge bit of flawed logic on your part. Being number 2 in Kobe's case is not the degradation of him you want it to be, and that kills much of your argument.
    Please feel free to skip over the FGM in my previous post as proof to Shaq being the top dog. Because we all know you are great at reading things.

    See my quote above, there you go again, with your flawed logic, and we know you are the one that can't read. I proved that time and time again, and refuted you when you said I fail at reading comprehension.
    A few minutes of video is a realistic and statistically significant sample for 3 years worth of games? Which planet did you came from?
    With your amazing reading comprehension, it should be noted that the original point of this thread is not to argue whether Kobe was a sidekick to Shaq during the 3 peat, it is an established assumption, but the assertion is who is the best of all the sidekicks.
    God you are stupid. Did you even see what the point of that video was? no, we know you didn't because you fail at reading comprehension. Of course it isn't a proof. It's a start. Bring on the next video, maybe it supports you. If you don't get it now, you are hopeless. I started the proof, you finish it. If you look at all their games together, you could prove Kobe was a sidekick. go back and read my posts again, you idiot, and don't bring any silly tangents. Bring on the next video and start the proof. that's the point, do I need to say it again?
    I am not sure where you are going with this? Oh wait! You come up with your own rules, you can go on a random diatribe about something to do with nothing whenever you please.

    Of course you have no clue where this is going, you fail at reading comprehension! I'm not making any rules, you just can't read and debate!
    So after a whole bunch of something about nothing, you finally came back to topic. Russell is a good candidate depending on how you measure #2s. However, the Celtics were known for revolutionising the game through defense and fastbreaks, both of which relies on the defense and rebounding of Russell.
    The fact that they relied on Russell for defense and rebounds still relegates him to a sidekick. First, Russell didn't get every rebound, or stop every center. Chamberlain ate him alive. No fast break when Wilt did his number on him. However, Bill had teammates that would outplay Wilt's teammates. Bill also had a coach that figured out the game years before any other coach did. Auerbach is the main reason Boston won. Not Bill Russell. John Wooden was the next coach that could build a dynasty. Then Red Holtzman.



  16. #116
    hasta la victoria, siempre cheguevara's Avatar
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    I take Pippen over Kobe tbh.

    Pippen embraced the role of #2 and made the best of it.

    Kobe got dragged kicking and screaming as #2 and alienated a 3 time world champ.

  17. #117
    O & 44!!! Now, go back &
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    I take Pippen over Kobe tbh.
    Understandable. Without Pippen there'd be no "MJ" in the sense we know him by now.

  18. #118
    Veteran Killakobe81's Avatar
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    I take Pippen over Kobe tbh.

    Pippen embraced the role of #2 and made the best of it.

    Kobe got dragged kicking and screaming as #2 and alienated a 3 time world champ.
    you have a point but why wouldn't a Pippen a true #2, embrace the role he is best suited for? Kobe was meant to be a #1 ...but agre he should of been patient and waited for Shaq to age. But Shaq got lazy and fat and the beef was on ...

  19. #119
    TheDrewShow is salty lefty's Avatar
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  20. #120
    Veteran hater's Avatar
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    Kobe was meant to be a #1 ...
    no he wasn't. that's lakerfan lore

  21. #121
    Veteran Killakobe81's Avatar
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    no he wasn't. that's lakerfan lore
    Just because your name is "hater" doesnt mean you have to act like you don't know "ball" ...

  22. #122
    PETA sucks! Spur_Fanatic's Avatar
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    Pippen or Kobe, but I'd go with Kobe.
    Awesome #2 to Shaq, credit where cred is due.

  23. #123
    O & 44!!! Now, go back &
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    Pippen or Kobe, but I'd go with Kobe.
    Awesome #2 to Shaq, credit where cred is due.
    Kobe: 5

    Daddy: 4

  24. #124
    The Timeless One Leetonidas's Avatar
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    Pertinent information, thanks bro! Funny stuff

  25. #125
    O & 44!!! Now, go back &
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    ^

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