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  1. #201
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    Oh, I did.

  2. #202
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    Secret U.S. Memo Made Legal Case to Kill a Citizen

    It then considered possible obstacles and rejected each in turn.

    Among them was an executive order that bans assassinations. That order, the lawyers found, blocked unlawful killings of political leaders outside of war, but not the killing of a lawful target in an armed conflict.

    A federal statute that prohibits Americans from murdering other Americans abroad, the lawyers wrote, did not apply either, because it is not “murder” to kill a wartime enemy in compliance with the laws of war.

    But that raised another pressing question: would it comply with the laws of war if the drone operator who fired the missile was a Central Intelligence Agency official, who, unlike a soldier, wore no uniform? The memorandum concluded that such a case would not be a war crime, although the operator might be in theoretical jeopardy of being prosecuted in a Yemeni court for violating Yemen’s domestic laws against murder, a highly unlikely possibility.

    Then there was the Bill of Rights: the Fourth Amendment’s guarantee that a “person” cannot be seized by the government unreasonably, and the Fifth Amendment’s guarantee that the government may not deprive a person of life “without due process of law.”

    The memo concluded that what was reasonable, and the process that was due, was different for Mr. Awlaki than for an ordinary criminal. It cited court cases allowing American citizens who had joined an enemy’s forces to be detained or prosecuted in a military court just like noncitizen enemies.
    Sounds to me like they did due diligence and carefully considered the legal questions.

    Who would you have had them check with, instead?

  3. #203
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    I was about to post the same link. Looks to me like another Yoo-Bybee.

    I would have had that checked with the courts. But I'm sure that test will come in time if this power is abused, just like Hamdi did.

  4. #204
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Sounds to me like they did due diligence and carefully considered the legal questions.
    The office may have given oral approval for an attack on Mr. Awlaki before completing its detailed memorandum.

  5. #205
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    Because they knew what the memorandum was going to conclude and, instead of stalling possible imminent action over the formality of actually getting the words down on paper right, they verbally told the President it was cool to take out al Awlaki?

  6. #206
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    You just said the killing was arguably uncons utional in another thread. Here you reflexively defend it.

    Change your tune much, Yoni?

  7. #207
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    You just said the killing was arguably uncons utional in another thread. Here you reflexively defend it.

    Change your tune much, Yoni?
    I admit to there being cons utional questions over the killing but, just as in the use of enhanced interrogation techniques, I believe the administration did due diligence, made their case, and proceeded accordingly.

    I also agree with the the outcomes of both administration findings.

    Let those that believe either act was uncons utional make their case in court and quit undermining the strategy both administrations are employing to eliminate very real dangers to the United States.

    Saying it was arguably extra-cons utional and defending it aren't mutually exclusive positions.

  8. #208
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Let those that believe either act was uncons utional make their case in court and quit undermining the strategy both administrations are employing to eliminate very real dangers to the United States.
    Why? If it's arguably uncons utional, it reasonably behooves those who think so to try to convince others in any setting at all.
    Saying it was arguably extra-cons utional and defending it aren't mutually exclusive positions.
    No, but they are not automatically harmonious positions either. Your anti-Obama bias arguably accounts for the difference in emphasis.

  9. #209
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    Why? If it's arguably uncons utional, it reasonably behooves those who think so to try to convince others in any setting at all.
    And, that's been done. I agree with the administration's position they were within the law to kill al Awlaki. I believe, just as I believed in the case of the Bush administration's justification for enhanced interrogation techniques, they seriously considered the cons utional questions surrounding the actions and made their arguments that demonstrate why they believed it would be within the law.

    Without a court deciding the question, we would just continue to quibble back and forth without any concrete support for either position. But, if you want to slay another horse to beat, be my guest.

    Yoo & Bybee was never legally countered in court and the military's UCMJ or Obama decisions to not employ those techniques, notwithstanding, demonstrate a conclusion by an administration that the enhanced interrogation techniques employed were neither uncons utional nor torture.

    No, but they are not automatically harmonious positions either. Your anti-Obama bias arguably accounts for the difference in emphasis.
    Can't speak for others but, in my case, they're perfectly consistent positions.

    I'll take it one step further.

    It would please me to no end if the rabid left would drag Obama through the coals on this issue. That would be fun to witness. That doesn't mean I don't agree with the administration's determination on this issue.

    Anyway, I suspect this administration is going to have its hands full dealing with "gun walking" and "Solyndra."

  10. #210
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    What you suspect doesn't amount to a hill of beans in this forum. The next time one of them is right might be the very first time.

  11. #211
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    What you suspect doesn't amount to a hill of beans in this forum. The next time one of them is right might be the very first time.
    Okay; suit yourself but, I'm satisfied what I suspect is of equal value, in this medium, as what you suspect. We're both building a small hill of beans.

  12. #212
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Without a court deciding the question, we would just continue to quibble back and forth without any concrete support for either position. But, if you want to slay another horse to beat, be my guest.
    But you just said that risks undermining a strategy that has kept us safe, and that no griping should take place outside of court. Clarify?

  13. #213
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    But you just said that risks undermining a strategy that has kept us safe, and that no griping should take place outside of court. Clarify?
    It doesn't answer the questions.

    We've gone back and forth in the forum for years and never solved one problem. Your posts are as inconsequential as mine.

  14. #214
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    It doesn't answer the questions.
    One minute forum critics are undermining national security, the next they are inconsequential. Please pick a lane.

  15. #215
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Also, lol at the idea that discussion forums can or should try to settle things definitively.

  16. #216
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    Also, lol at the idea that discussion forums can or should try to settle things definitively.
    at what you say in here having any more import, legitimacy, or credibility than what I say.

  17. #217
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    One minute forum critics are undermining national security, the next they are inconsequential. Please pick a lane.
    You honestly believe my criticism is of the posters in this forum? No, Winehole, you just parrot the ideas that are being espoused by real dangerous people, out there in the real world.

  18. #218
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    at what you say in here having any more import, legitimacy, or credibility than what I say
    I never said so. Each poster decides for himself whom to believe.

  19. #219
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    You honestly believe my criticism is of the posters in this forum?
    As stated it was a global judgment:
    Let those that believe either act was uncons utional make their case in court and quit undermining the strategy both administrations are employing to eliminate very real dangers to the United States.

  20. #220
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    I never said so. Each poster decides for himself whom to believe.
    You try to tell others what to decide about my posts, so; that's not exactly a true statement. You and the rest of the trolls, in this forum, constantly snipe at the motives, intelligence, and various personality traits of the posters with which you disagree.

    That's all well and good and, far be it from me to suggest you do otherwise. But, when posters devolve into a forum presence in which that's all they do, I put them on ignore.

    The only reason you're not is because some of our exchanges occasionally begin as a true back an forth on ideas and positions. More and more, however, you devolve into insults.

    Time will tell if I get tired of the pedantic back and forth in which you tend to engage to distract from the original topic; but, it's not looking good.

    On this topic, I've stated my agreement with the Obama administration's position based on what I believe is his administration's reasoned and reasonable consideration of the challenge al Awlaki's cir stance. You disagree. Fine.

    What's left to discuss? Apparently nothing when you start impugning the character of some anonymous poster on an insignificant nowhere internet forum.

  21. #221
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    As stated it was a global judgment:
    This forum is a very minute, insignificant part of the universe of public opinion; and, I dare say, has absolutely no influence in current geopolitical discourse.

  22. #222
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    You try to tell others what to decide about my posts, so; that's not exactly a true statement.
    I express my opinion. That isn't telling anyone what to decide.
    You and the rest of the trolls, in this forum, constantly snipe at the motives, intelligence, and various personality traits of the posters with which you disagree.
    Whereas you are above such petty sniping.
    More and more, however, you devolve into insults.
    I insulted you somehow? Some examples would be nice.
    What's left to discuss? Apparently nothing when you start impugning the character of some anonymous poster on an insignificant nowhere internet forum.
    Whose character did I impugn?

  23. #223
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    This forum is a very minute, insignificant part of the universe of public opinion; and, I dare say, has absolutely no influence in current geopolitical discourse.
    Agreed.

  24. #224
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    Keep masturbating over our individual roles in here, if you like. Suffice it say, I believe there are people identically situated as you that believe like me and I believe there are people identically situated as me that believe like you. Our personal cir stances, personalities, and situation have little bearing on what is argued in here.

    So, back to the topic of the thread...

    Where are the wanted posters with David Barron's and Walter Lederman's names on them.

    Remember these?


    Where's Code Pink? Did Cindy Sheehan die or something? The anti-war movement has been pretty silent over the past couple of years.

    You say I'm inconsistent in supporting this administration decision? I say the left is inconsistent by condemning the identical action - taken by a Republican administration - while remaining largely silent when it's done by a Democrat.

    I see that as vindication off John Yoo. How do you see it?

    Who is being blindly partisan? I guess Obama gets a pass because, after all, he closed Gitmo, right?

  25. #225
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Parroting the "dangerous" Sir Wm. Blackstone:

    Of great importance to the public is the preservation of this personal liberty: for if once it were left in the power of any, the highest, magistrate to imprison arbitrarily whomever he or his officers thought proper … there would soon be an end of all other rights and immunities. … To bereave a man of life, or by violence to confiscate his estate, without accusation or trial, would be so gross and notorious an act of despotism, as must at once convey the alarm of tyranny throughout the whole kingdom. …
    Last edited by Winehole23; 10-10-2011 at 04:25 AM.

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