Let's Take A Closer Look At MJ les

[baseline bum]

1991 Lakers - good "team defense" but no notable lock down defenders. Their anchor? Vlade Divac. 57 year old Magic past his prime was running the show

You mean 31 year old Magic (still in his prime), right?

[mavs>spurs]

boiled down it's still

jordan 6
kobe 0

[Giuseppe]

boiled down it's still

jordan 6
kobe 0

I'm throwin' this in the boiling pot as well:::

Pippen: 6

Jordan: 0

[Killakobe81]

MJ is overrated by his generation. Underrated by Kobe and Lebron fanbois. A couple of thoughts on topics touched on in here.

1. Kobe's shot selection. Even more than Colorado, the #1 reason he is not considered by many to be on the same level as MJ. Jordan was prone to bad shots too, but not like Kobe. Kobe seems like he is trying to prove something by taking shots over 2 3 defenders at least 2 or 3 times a game and in his prime, probably closer to 4. He eliminates those not only is his FG% and PER higher, but he wins a few more close playoff and regular season games. Don't get me wrong you need to be able to hit those but he seems like he is competing with himself more than the opponent and sometimes he loses.

2. Let's not pretend that MJ did not have the benefit of being guarded by guys that no one in the modern game would even dream of defending Kobe or Lebron with. Sure, there wasnt a lot of choice for the Suns or Jazz they started Hersey Hawkins and Jeff Hornacek in 3 of the 6 Finals MJ was in but Lebron and Kobe would destroy those guys too. MJ was sooo ahead of his time. Sure he was great, his combination of athleticism and solid fundamentals was unmatched. Watch the old games. who was even in the same vicinity of Mj as an athlete up until he went to play baseball? Pippen, and Nique ...that's about it. MJ was so transcendent. He looks like he is a MACBOOK in the Apple IIC or Commodore 64 era. That takes nothing away from him, and the teams were better then, but 1 on 1 he had no peer. Kobe did. *

BTW, Lebron faces good athletes even better ones than either but he also has a MJ like advantage on them. ...he just doesnt use it as well as MJ. He prefers to play like Magic or Jack fall-away 3's. He has Malone's physique, Mj's athleticism, Magic's vision but hero mode Kobe shot selection at times, and Malone tendencies in the clutch.

3. MJ played on some weak teams too ... but none of Kobe's had 3 HOFers like the 2nd 3peat Bulls. And no team MJ played on, not even the wiz were as bad as the Smush, Luke, Mihm Lakers. I watched that team ...horrid.

[mavs>spurs]

I'm throwin' this in the boiling pot as well:::

Pippen: 6

Jordan: 0

a little pinch of bull thrown in won't change the recipe too much i dont think

[Giuseppe]

a little pinch of bull thrown in won't change the recipe too much i dont think

At least we don't have to talk about '06 anymore.

tee, hee.

[mavs>spurs]

yep it's all about '11 and the May 8 Massacre

[Koolaid_Man]

MJ is overrated by his generation. Underrated by Kobe and Lebron fanbois. A couple of thoughts on topics touched on in here.

1. Kobe's shot selection. Even more than Colorado, the #1 reason he is not considered by many to be on the same level as MJ. Jordan was prone to bad shots too, but not like Kobe. Kobe seems like he is trying to prove something by taking shots over 2 3 defenders at least 2 or 3 times a game and in his prime, probably closer to 4. He eliminates those not only is his FG% and PER higher, but he wins a few more close playoff and regular season games. Don't get me wrong you need to be able to hit those but he seems like he is competing with himself more than the opponent and sometimes he loses.

2. Let's not pretend that MJ had the benefit of being guarded by guys that no one in the modern game would even dream of defending Kobe or Lebron with. Sure, there wasnt a lot of choice for the Suns or Jazz they started Hersey Hawkins and Jeff Hornacek in 3 of the 6 Finals MJ was in but Lebron and Kobe would destroy those guys too. MJ was sooo ahead of his time. Sure he was great his combination of athleticism and solid fundamentals was unmatched. Watch the old games. who was even in the same vicinity of Mj as an athlete up until he went to play baseball? Pippen, and Nique ...that's about it. MJ was so transcendent. He looks like he is a MACBOOK in the Apple IIC or Commodore 64 era. That takes nothing away from him, and the teams were better then, but 1 on 1 he had no peer. Kobe did. *

BTW, Lebron faces good athletes even better ones than either but he also has a MJ like advantage on them. ...he just doesnt use it as well as MJ. He prefers to play like Magic or Jack fall-away 3's. He has Malone's physique, Mj's athleticism, Magic's vision but hero mode Kobe shot selection at times, and Malone tendencies in the clutch.

3. MJ played on some weak teams too ... but none of Kobe's had 3 HOFers like the 2nd 3peat Bulls. And no team MJ played on, not even the wiz were as bad as the Smush, Luke, Mihm Lakers. I watched that team ...horrid.

Not a bad take overall Killa but he looks like a MAC because he didn't have to worry about a Kobe, Wade, Lebron, TMac, or A.I coming back at him. He rested on defense, stole Pip's lime and got away with it. I'm not saying he wasn't the best amongst his peers I'm just saying he won easy because he had it easyPeriod...

[ElNono]

[stretch]

MJ is overrated by his generation. Underrated by Kobe and Lebron fanbois. A couple of thoughts on topics touched on in here.

1. Kobe's shot selection. Even more than Colorado, the #1 reason he is not considered by many to be on the same level as MJ. Jordan was prone to bad shots too, but not like Kobe. Kobe seems like he is trying to prove something by taking shots over 2 3 defenders at least 2 or 3 times a game and in his prime, probably closer to 4. He eliminates those not only is his FG% and PER higher, but he wins a few more close playoff and regular season games. Don't get me wrong you need to be able to hit those but he seems like he is competing with himself more than the opponent and sometimes he loses.

2. Let's not pretend that MJ had the benefit of being guarded by guys that no one in the modern game would even dream of defending Kobe or Lebron with. Sure, there wasnt a lot of choice for the Suns or Jazz they started Hersey Hawkins and Jeff Hornacek in 3 of the 6 Finals MJ was in but Lebron and Kobe would destroy those guys too. MJ was sooo ahead of his time. Sure he was great his combination of athleticism and solid fundamentals was unmatched. Watch the old games. who was even in the same vicinity of Mj as an athlete up until he went to play baseball? Pippen, and Nique ...that's about it. MJ was so transcendent. He looks like he is a MACBOOK in the Apple IIC or Commodore 64 era. That takes nothing away from him, and the teams were better then, but 1 on 1 he had no peer. Kobe did. *

BTW, Lebron faces good athletes even better ones than either but he also has a MJ like advantage on them. ...he just doesnt use it as well as MJ. He prefers to play like Magic or Jack fall-away 3's. He has Malone's physique, Mj's athleticism, Magic's vision but hero mode Kobe shot selection at times, and Malone tendencies in the clutch.

3. MJ played on some weak teams too ... but none of Kobe's had 3 HOFers like the 2nd 3peat Bulls. And no team MJ played on, not even the wiz were as bad as the Smush, Luke, Mihm Lakers. I watched that team ...horrid.

This is a great summary. Couldn't have put it better myself, especially on MJ simply being ahead of his time. Very much like Wilt being way ahead of his time. While I think a prime MJ would still be the best player in today's game, it wouldn't be by as big of a margin as it was when he was playing.

[Giuseppe]

yep it's all about '11 and the May 8 Massacre

Ain't no doubt about it. At 15 down--Dirk grabbed a handful of jacks & timbers & started back down.

If you think I grudge him & his after that you've another thing comin'.

[Killakobe81]

This is a great summary. Couldn't have put it better myself, especially on MJ simply being ahead of his time. Very much like Wilt being way ahead of his time. While I think a prime MJ would still be the best player in today's game, it wouldn't be by as big of a margin as it was when he was playing.

agree. MJ would still be the best today but he would have to work even harder to do so. And if Lebron grew some balls, if MJ played today, it would be the first time he would of faced someone who was a better natural athlete than him. Kobe is a great athlete ... but not in MJ's or Lebron's class. Skill wise he is arguably better than both, especially in the low post but he aint on that level.

Also on Mj's side if he went back to the 70's only Dr. J and David Thompson could compete ...if played in the 60's he might of put up a 100 Like wilt.

[Gutter92]

ing re Kool thought Vince Carter was on the '09 Magic

honestly bro did u watch the Finals? do you watch your team play or just hop on the bandwagon when they win crofl

[baseline bum]

3. MJ played on some weak teams too ... but none of Kobe's had 3 HOFers like the 2nd 3peat Bulls.

Except for the one that had 4.

[ElNono]

[mavs>spurs]

Kobe played with Shaq, the Odom/Bynum/Gasol trio front line, Rice, 2 of the most clutch role players of all time in Horry and Fisher, Caron Butler, Ron Artest, Payton, Malone, etc..

[djohn2oo8]

You left something out. MJ would have never guarded Kobe. History teaches us that he would have pulled a Duncan, and allowed Pippen to guard Kobe, just like Jim would always allow Robinson or some other scrub to guard Shaq. Also, Kobe would have guarded MJ... no question.

You all should leave James out of these comparisons. Hes not half the passer and floor general as Magic was. Hes nowhere even close as athletically as MJ was. In fact, hes out right clumsy, with poor footwork to boot. When you say Lebron has an MJ like advantage over his opposition like MJ did, are you just ing with us, or are you that stupid? In one breath you say MJ was ahead of his time, then you go on to insult him by comparing him to a guy that cant execute a basic post move.

Personally, I think MJ was a smarter player than Kobe, with greater leaping skills. Those are the only advantages MJ had over Kobe.

MJ

Better Scorer
Better Defender
Better Leader
Better in the clutch
Better Teammate

[Ashy Larry]

at the time the Bulls played the Suns, wasn't Dan Majerle on the 2nd team All defense in 1991 and 1993????? Wasn't like Mike was guarded by a stiff.

[Ashy Larry]

You mean 31 year old Magic (still in his prime), right?

even though they're Laker fans, they're really shooting themselves in the foot. How could Magic be over the hill when he finished 2nd in the MVP voting and at 31 avg'd 19/12 and 7

[Ashy Larry]

MJ

Better Scorer
Better Defender
Better Leader
Better in the clutch
Better Teammate

better scorer, yes.

better defender, yes. No way in Kobe should have been first team all defense this year based on that floating bull he did all year long. reputation award there.

better leader, yes. Mike's squads undefeated in the finals and never reached game seven and won 3 of those on the road.

Better in the clutch. You can say that pretty close. Might be even. Bryant has had many great moments and even Spur fans wouldn't want the ball in Kobe's hands at the end of the game.

Better teammate. They're even on this. Both push their teammates but can be complete assholes.

[Ashy Larry]

You think Steve Kerr and Horace Grant would say MJ was a better teammate.

According to PJ, Kobe is more clutch.

MJ refused to guard the other teams best wing man, Kobe did.

MJ has never scored 81 in a game, or 42 in a half. Oh, and that 42 in a half Kobe dropped was on MJ.

Ill give you better leader. MJ was more vocal.

Was that on a 40 year old Mike or a 25 year old Mike? Because we damn well know if Jordan was 25, that 42 wouldn't have happened ........

[Ashy Larry]

Magic could still get his numbers, but he was far from the fat break wizard that made him famous. He basically lived in the post once Kareem retired. Seeing him struggle to get up and down the floor against Pippen was agonizing. Lebron will be there soon, with no post game.

but to say he was over the hill even after putting up the season he did and finishing 2nd in the mvp voting is crazy.

Mike's les are legit. Won the ring on the Forum floor. They really won that 1991 le after Isiah and the Pisstains walked off the floor like es and knew they had to pass the torch.

1992 - defeated an athletic team. The same squad they should have faced in 1991 but that over the hill dude took care of that.

1993 - Won in six games on the Suns floor against the reigning MVP and against a 2nd team all defensive player, who I may add, had the best record in the league.

1996 - against another athletic squad and even though he struggled with a 41% FG, that series was over after three games. They worked the Sonix with two blowouts i the first 3 games. And what made Mike that year was he developed that fallaway while filming SpaceJam and redeemed himself after that performance against the Magic with a 4-0 ECF.

1997 & 1998 - combination of things. won the le in 1997 after being guard mostly by Bryon Russell; but the Jazz can only blame themselves for 1998. Pippen with a bad back. Harper was ill. Jazz had home court. And somehow Mike willed that team to the finish line. And won on the Jazz's floor.

Kobe's great but will always be the 2nd best shooting guard of all time, unless he does something spectacular in these next five years.

[stretch]

Dan was scrappy, tough, in your face type of defender. Far from a lock down guy like Christie, Bowen, Manu, Battier, Prince, Raja, Marion, and the list goes on.

@ any of these guys being considered legit lockdown guys. Bruce Bowen is the only true lockdown defender on this list. the rest are just good defenders that still have exploitable weaknesses. Bowen BY FAR has the fewest defensive weakness of any of these guys. And even he had certain guys he struggled to defend, such as Josh Howard.

[Koolaid_Man]

Was that on a 40 year old Mike or a 25 year old Mike? Because we damn well know if Jordan was 25, that 42 wouldn't have happened ........

U out your gotdam mind...based in what...why wouldn't it have when Pippen covered for MJ his whole career. MJ couldn't guard Kobe...in fact never faced a player like Kobe...if Kobe didn't score MJ wouldn't have had to do with it.

Dude got defensive honors cuz the media liked his ass....nothing more nothing less...Pippen was the man on D...stop pipe dreaming homie...

[Killakobe81]

You left something out. MJ would have never guarded Kobe. History teaches us that he would have pulled a Duncan, and allowed Pippen to guard Kobe, just like Jim would always allow Robinson or some other scrub to guard Shaq. Also, Kobe would have guarded MJ... no question.

You all should leave James out of these comparisons. Hes not half the passer and floor general as Magic was. Hes nowhere even close as athletically as MJ was. In fact, hes out right clumsy, with poor footwork to boot. When you say Lebron has an MJ like advantage over his opposition like MJ did, are you just ing with us, or are you that stupid? In one breath you say MJ was ahead of his time, then you go on to insult him by comparing him to a guy that cant execute a basic post move.

Personally, I think MJ was a smarter player than Kobe, with greater leaping skills. Those are the only advantages MJ had over Kobe.

Skill-wise, you are correct Lebron compares to neither his lack of footwork and post game being great examples ...plus I hate the way he falls back on his pull up 3. But from a PHYSICAL standpoint how can anyone not say he has many of the same gifts as MJ? Lebron maybe as fast and jump as high plus he LOOKS stronger. Granted he does not use that bulk as well as a lithe, muscular MJ, but my point was Lebron has the physical tools to be GOAT ...he just may never get there. And it looks so far that he won't.