Resuming CBA talks

[Buddy Holly]

You'll always find owners in the big markets that want to pay to play. The only reason the owners are still locked out is the small market teams. And part of the reason is the Buss of the league don't want to subsidize the small/failing markets.

Ummmm... no. There's a handful of insanely rich owners who don't care about a few percentage points, yes, but that's not the point I was making. Why are you trying to steer the conversation that way?

BTW, an even playing field for all teams makes for a better league. The sooner you realize this the sooner you'll be better off.

[ElNono]

Because the players themselves have very little value outside the NBA bubble.

What? The only reason superstars ain't making a few millions playing somewhere else is that they still have a contractual obligation with the NBA, and that uncertainty impedes them from signing long-term deals somewhere else.

Don't think for a minute that should Kobe, Manu, etc find themselves without a job they wouldn't have their phones ringing non-stop.

Would they make more than what they currently make in the NBA? Probably not. Would they have "little value"? You're out of you mind if you really think that.

[ElNono]

Ummmm... no. There's a handful of insanely rich owners who don't care about a few percentage points, yes, but that's not the point

Sure it is. They were making money in the previous CBA. Of course it's a point.

[ElNono]

What dumbass is going to invest money in a new start up league and pay their players NBA type money and give them NBA type luxuries while building a new brand and starting to from scratch?

Dolan, Cuban, Buss can get a league up and running in no time. You're underestimating big markets. Plus there's already multi-million dollar leagues all around the world.

[Buddy Holly]

What? The only reason superstars ain't making a few millions playing somewhere else is that they still have a contractual obligation with the NBA, and that uncertainty impedes them from signing long-term deals somewhere else.

What American league is willing to offer out of work NBA players millions? Oh, you mean the overseas leagues that are years and years old with a built in fan base and years of branding and investors. Those leagues? Oh..

p.s.

Since it's a lockout, no player is under any contractual obligation with the NBA, If they sign overseas and want to remain overseas even after the NBA comes back, they can.

If a new league springs up next month and the NBA is still in a lockout, a player can sign with said league and play with them even if the NBA comes back. That's what happens in a lockout, there contracts mean nothing.

Don't think for a minute that should Kobe, Manu, etc find themselves without a job they wouldn't have their phones ringing non-stop.

Where did I say that?

Would they make more than what they currently make in the NBA? Probably not. Would they have "little value"? You're out of you mind if you really think that.

They would have little value. In the NBA, Kobe makes 25 million a year in the NBA bubble. Overseas, they offered him between 6 and 7 million a year.

You see how his value went down tremendously.

[ElNono]

Rudy Fernandez: $4.35 million/season from Real Madrid
Nenad Kristic: $9.8 million for two seasons in CSKA Moscow

Scrubs like RMJ and Bonner probably would have a hard time finding a good job in Europe, but the whole 'players are not worth a damn without the NBA' is baloney.

[Buddy Holly]

Rudy Fernandez: $4.35 million/season from Real Madrid
Nenad Kristic: $9.8 million for two seasons in CSKA Moscow

Yeah, and in the NBA teams over play for that "quality" of talent 2 to 1.

And they're only getting that scratch because they're NBA "status". If they're that "quality" coming from another euroleague team, you bet your ass they're not making that much.

[ElNono]

What American league is willing to offer out of work NBA players millions? Oh, you mean the overseas leagues that are years and years old with a built in fan base and years of branding and investors. Those leagues? Oh..

Read my previous post.

Since it's a lockout, no player is under any contractual obligation with the NBA, If they sign overseas and want to remain overseas even after the NBA comes back, they can.

Fail. Players are still under contractual obligation with the NBA teams, except for free agents. There's a reason the league wants to void the contracts if the union decertifies. Players that are currently under a deal with a team expose themselves to a breach of contract claim.

If a new league springs up next month and the NBA is still in a lockout, a player can sign with said league and play with them even if the NBA comes back. That's what happens in a lockout, there contracts mean nothing.

Uh? No. You need to read a little more.
A lockout means that paychecks are withheld until the lockout is lifted.

Where did I say that?

Here:

Because the players themselves have very little value outside the NBA bubble.

They would have little value. In the NBA, Kobe makes 25 million a year in the NBA bubble. Overseas, they offered him between 6 and 7 million a year.

You see how his value went down tremendously.

6/7 million a year is still tremendous value compared to any other kind of job. Kobe just isn't worth the last deal he signed, even in the NBA. But that's another topic. The thing is, Buss wouldn't let him walk. He would put together his own league before doing that. He knows what gave him that trillion dollar TV deal.

[ElNono]

Yeah, and in the NBA teams over play for that "quality" of talent 2 to 1.

And they're only getting that scratch because they're NBA "status". If they're that "quality" coming from another euroleague team, you bet your ass they're not making that much.

Maybe. They would still make multi-million dollars, which is the going contract rate for stars there.

[Buddy Holly]

Fail. Players are still under contractual obligation with the NBA teams, except for free agents.

How are they under obligation to their NBA teams during a lockout when they're free and clear to sign with any team they want? Come on man.

Uh? No. You need to read a little more.
A lockout means that paychecks are withheld until the lockout is lifted.

A lockout means much more than just having their paycheck withheld.

Here:

So you prove my point in me not saying it.

Me saying NBA players have very little value outside of the NBA bubble does not equate to "NBA players won't find work.

6/7 million a year is still tremendous value compared to any other kind of job. Kobe just isn't worth the last deal he signed, even in the NBA. But that's another topic. The thing is, Buss wouldn't let him walk. He would put together his own league before doing that. He knows what gave him that trillion dollar TV deal.

Jesus man, your level of reading comprehension is staggering. NBA players have much less value outside the NBA. The NBA name and brand is what gives the players their high value as it is now.

The 12th man makes a million dollars a year in the NBA for christ sakes.

[ElNono]

As a matter of fact the league is also in a bind with a lockout. Because as long as there's a lockout and the union exists, owners can only hire temporary workers (players). Meaning, the league can't just walk away either.

[Buddy Holly]

Maybe. They would still make multi-million dollars, which is the going contract rate for stars there.

The big names would make millions on a annual basis overseas. Well, the big enough names willing to play overseas.

But guess what, there's nearly 400 NBA players. The average NBA player salary for those 400 players is 5 million.

You find me a league in existence now that could honor that.

I'll sit here waiting, patiently.

[Buddy Holly]

As a matter of fact the league is also in a bind with a lockout. Because as long as there's a lockout and the union exists, owners can only hire temporary workers (players). Meaning, the league can't just walk away either.

And a NBA with replacement players would be a uva lot more successful than NBPA players joining a new league.

NBA players know this, they know their greatest value is tied to the NBA name and brand.

Fans of teams don't live and die by the players, they live and die by the team.

Sure there are a few who will become the fan of the team their favorite player plays on, but they're the rare few, the microscopic exception. Fans are fans of the team first and foremost.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The big names would make millions on a annual basis overseas. Well, the big enough names willing to play overseas.

But guess what, there's nearly 400 NBA players. The average NBA player salary for those 400 players is 5 million.

You find me a league in existence now that could honor that.

I'll sit here waiting, patiently.

Its funny but this is exactly the type of argument the owners do not want to make. You are basially agreeing that the NBA is a monopoly.

They go to court and argue that then they lose their ass. Collusion amongst firms to create a monopoly is bad.

[ElNono]

How are they under obligation to their NBA teams during a lockout when they're free and clear to sign with any team they want? Come on man.

You forget that the union actually had to come out and say players are allowed to. But, players under a contract with a team need to have an opt-out clause in the event the lockout is resolved. Rudy Fernandez, Ibaka, and all those guys have exactly that. I think Kristic was a free agent, so he didn't need to.

That's the reason a lot of players didn't sign in China, since the Chinese federation said they would not allow such opt-out.

A lockout means much more than just having their paycheck withheld.

Of course it's more complicated than that. One thing it doesn't mean is that contracts are null and void.

So you prove my point in me not saying it.

Me saying NBA players have very little value outside of the NBA bubble does not equate to "NBA players won't find work.

Maybe you need to define what do you mean by "very little value".

Jesus man, your level of reading comprehension is staggering. NBA players have much less value outside the NBA. The NBA name and brand is what gives the players their high value as it is now.

Nope. What gives them the value is the fact they're the best players in the world, and thus they make the best league in the world. It used to be called ABA back in the day, or if you want to go really back, the BAA.

But if the league dissolves, there will always be a bunch of current owners that will be willing to put together another league with the same players. They were making money before, there's no reason they wouldn't be making money now.

The 12th man makes a million dollars a year in the NBA for christ sakes.

Nobody pays to watch the 12th man. The only reason the 12th man gets paid as much is because there's a salary cap. It didn't used to be like that. Ask Shaq how much he was making before the 98-99 lockout.

[Buddy Holly]

Its funny but this is exactly the type of argument the owners do not want to make. You are basially agreeing that the NBA is a monopoly.

They go to court and argue that then they lose their ass. Collusion amongst firms to create a monopoly is bad.

Then your presumption is that the NBA is dumb enough to use that as a defense in a anti-trust lawsuit.

What I posted is just a simply observation.

However, aside from that, I doubt the NBPA would win a anti-trust lawsuit. Being the best league in your sport doesn't make you a monopoly.

[ElNono]

And a NBA with replacement players would be a uva lot more successful than NBPA players joining a new league.

What??????. What replacement players would these be? NBDL players? Are you kidding yourself? Who's going to pay to go watch some scrubs? You and who else?

[ElNono]

The big names would make millions on a annual basis overseas. Well, the big enough names willing to play overseas.

Right.

But guess what, there's nearly 400 NBA players. The average NBA player salary for those 400 players is 5 million.

That's not the player's fault, and that's really the point you're missing.

You find me a league in existence now that could honor that. I'll sit here waiting, patiently.

They don't have to. That's still besides the point.

[ElNono]

This is a star driven league... whoever didn't get the memo yet, need to sit down and think things a little more thoroughly. It isn't the RMJ or Bonner that fill up arenas and get teams the major money tv deals. It isn't the owners either. It's the Duncan, Ginobili, Kobe, Rose, Durant, Lebron, etc of the world. The only reason scrubs get paid what they get paid is that the league decided to cap contracts back in '88, so the actual stars didn't get as much, but since the pie was still growing, the rest was distributed among the other players in the teams.

But the league doesn't want a free market system either. They want to keep (or even lower) the caps on the stars (who make the league), and also trim down the scrubs.

[ElNono]

And good luck filling up arenas and getting billion dollar tv deals with "replacement players". That has to be the most re ed thing I heard all day here.

[ElNono]

BTW, none of these "replacement players" can be signed long term. Lockout forbids that. They can only be temp players, hired game to game. Much like what happened with refs a few years ago.

[spurs10]

And a NBA with replacement players would be a uva lot more successful than NBPA players joining a new league.

NBA players know this, they know their greatest value is tied to the NBA name and brand.

Fans of teams don't live and die by the players, they live and die by the team.

Sure there are a few who will become the fan of the team their favorite player plays on, but they're the rare few, the microscopic exception. Fans are fans of the team first and foremost.

Who do you think is going to pay to see any scab basketball players. No one is the correct answer. Do you actually ever watch people play basketball? If your logic is correct then just call the Toros the Spurs and watch the amount of people that will pay $100 to see them play. People will not pay to see a team with just anybody playing. How many people want to see a band called the Stones that doesn't have Keith and Mick in it?

[Buddy Holly]

You forget that the union actually had to come out and say players are allowed to. But, players under a contract with a team need to have an opt-out clause in the event the lockout is resolved. Rudy Fernandez, Ibaka, and all those guys have exactly that. I think Kristic was a free agent, so he didn't need to.

That's the reason a lot of players didn't sign in China, since the Chinese federation said they would not allow such opt-out.

That was FIBA that declared teams must offer an opt-out clause not the NBA.

And most players want the opt-out clause because they want to return to the NBA if it comes back this season.

Of course it's more complicated than that. One thing it doesn't mean is that contracts are null and void.

No, they're contracts aren''t null and void, but during the lockout they are not enforceable.

Maybe you need to define what do you mean by "very little value".

VERY LITTLE VALUE IN COMPARISON TO THEIR VALUE INSIDE THE NBA BUBBLE.

It's that simple.

A player making 4-5 million a year in the NBA isn't going to make anywhere near that money outside the NBA.

Nope. What gives them the value is the fact they're the best players in the world, and thus they make the best league in the world. It used to be called ABA back in the day, or if you want to go really back, the BAA.

What?

But if the league dissolves, there will always be a bunch of current owners that will be willing to put together another league with the same players. They were making money before, there's no reason they wouldn't be making money now.

Ohmigod man. If you think it's that simple and easy...

Nobody pays to watch the 12th man. The only reason the 12th man gets paid as much is because there's a salary cap. It didn't used to be like that. Ask Shaq how much he was making before the 98-99 lockout.

What?

I suggest you just stop and quit arguing about a subject you have very little actual knowledge about.

[ElNono]

We can't even sell out the AT&T Center with a washed up Duncan, Manu and Tony these days.

But the Toros will really light up the place

[Buddy Holly]

BTW, none of these "replacement players" can be signed long term. Lockout forbids that. They can only be temp players, hired game to game. Much like what happened with refs a few years ago.

Yeah, replacement players.