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  1. #1
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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  2. #2
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    The Senate’s new NDAA language changes almost nothing. Yes, there are some technical adjustments, which Bobby has described in detail, and some of these may serve to lessen slightly the irrational burden this bill would put on those who have to handle detainee affairs and terrorism investigations both domestically and abroad. But the core of the tinkered-with provisions remains the same. The bill still authorizes law of war detention. It still seeks to make military detention mandatory for certain categories of cases. And it still seeks to en ber transfers of Guantanamo detainees out of American custody. The first of these is a good idea. The second two are very bad ideas. And the problem with them is not the specific language with by which the bill seeks to do this. The problem, rather, is the core policy objective. Gumming up the mandatory detention provision with requirements that seek to regulate when it applies and when it will–and will not–require an interrogation to be interrupted so that a different agency can take custody of a detainee really doesn’t help. It only layers micromanagement on top of the underlying stupidity. Limiting the transfer restrictions to Fiscal Year 2012 does not make them any less counterproductive if, as Defense Secretary Leon Panetta put it in an appropriately grouchy letter, “Congress simply continues to insert these restrictions into legislation on an annual basis without ever revisiting the substance of the legislation.” The problem here is not the trees, but the forest.
    http://www.lawfareblog.com/2011/11/w...-still-stinks/

  3. #3
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Veteran Halberto's Avatar
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  5. #5
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    but Human-Americans' rights are inalienable!!

    God, you gave those right to us, please help us.

  6. #6
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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  7. #7
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    but Human-Americans' rights are inalienable!!

    God, you gave those right to us, please help us.
    boutons takes a mischievous delight in mocking those he only pretends to sympathize with. He crushes them under his corporate-American boot heel, while calling for reinforcements from his friends in the MIC/police state/VRWC who keep him warm and cozy in the big pile of $$$ he has stolen from his employees.

  8. #8
    Rising above the Fray spursncowboys's Avatar
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    can't trust what someone says who a. plays frisbee golf; and b. meets, dates and marries a man she meets while playing frisbee golf

  9. #9
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    fair enough

  10. #10
    Rising above the Fray spursncowboys's Avatar
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    So a budget is passed bi-partisanly. Of course Obama will veto it. Just shows that both parties are trying to create the feel of a lame duck congress. That way they can both just point fingers. I can't say I argue with him vetoing this though.

  11. #11
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    why not?

  12. #12
    Rising above the Fray spursncowboys's Avatar
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    That early retirement part of the budget gave me hope. I will one day be called mr. spursncowboys. and not by my rank. yes that is my real last name btw.

  13. #13
    I play pretty, no? TeyshaBlue's Avatar
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    Anybody else read the headline as if Winehole was going to veto the bill?




    Figures...it was just me.

  14. #14
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    I did.

  15. #15
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    (Thanks for noticing, doubt anyone else will.)

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    I play pretty, no? TeyshaBlue's Avatar
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  17. #17
    Old fogey Bender's Avatar
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    Figures...it was just me.
    no, it was me too. He will always be "WH" ....

  18. #18
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    Of course the WH would want to veto this law... then it might actually get overturned. Far better for them to just do this without any sort of legal backing.

  19. #19
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    ...according to Senator Carl Levin, it was the Obama administration which told Congress to remove the language in the original bill which exempted American citizens and lawful residents from the detention power. See the C-Span video of the debate on the floor of the Senate, at 4:43:29.
    http://volokh.com/2011/11/30/defense...ican-citizens/

  20. #20
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    Nice. Way to go Obama. I wonder why he even cares about putting it into law... after all, the Presidency has already claimed power to this in respect to Bush w/ Jose Padilla. Why have it enshrined in law when you can just do it secretly?

    It's like this which makes me very leery of voting for Obama. Then again, I know most Republican nominees would be as bad. I guess I'll pull for Huntsman.

  21. #21
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    Barry blocks it, Repugs will say that fist-bumping terrorist Barry loves/supports terrorism and hates America.

  22. #22
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    If overturned, then it's Exec signing statement opportunity.

  23. #23
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    Come on, God, how can you let these assholes take away those "inalienable God-given rights" you gave us? God giveth, but man can taketh away? Time to Man up, Dude!

  24. #24
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    The Cons ution says quite clearly: 'In the trial of all crimes -- no exception -- there shall be a jury, and the trial shall be held in the State where said crimes have been committed.' Clearly, the Founding Fathers were talking about a civilian court, of which the U.S. person is brought before in its jurisdiction.

    They talk about treason against the United States, including war in the United States. The Cons ution says it "shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."

    The following sentence is instructive: No person -- 'No person,' it says -- 'shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.' I would say that pretty clearly, 'open court' is likely to be civilian court.

    Further, the Cons ution goes on, that when a person is charged with treason, a felony, or other crime, that person shall be 'removed to the State having Jurisdiction of the Crime' -- once again contemplating civilian, state court and not the U.S. military. As everyone knows, we have amended the Cons ution many times. The Fourth Amendment of the Cons ution is instructive here. It says: 'The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures' -- including, by the way, the seizure of the person -- 'shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, except upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.'

    Now, in section 1031(b)(2), I do not see the requirement for a civilian judge to issue a warrant. So it appears this legislation directly violates the Fourth Amendment of the Cons ution with regard to those rights which are inalienable, according to the Declaration of Independence, and should be inviolate as your birthright as an American citizen.

    Recall the Fifth Amendment, which says: 'No person' -- by the way, remember, 'no person'; there is not an exception here. 'No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment,' hear the words, 'of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War' -- meaning there is a separate jurisdiction for U.S. citizens who are in the uniformed service of the United States. But unless you are in the service of the United States, you are one of those 'no persons' who shall be answerable for a 'capital' or 'infamous crime,' except on 'indictment of a Grand Jury.'

    The Sixth Amendment says: 'In all criminal prosecutions' -- not some, not by exception, in all criminal prosecutions -- 'the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed' ... I go on to these because I regard all of these rights as inherent to U.S. citizens, granted to them by their birth in the United States.
    http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/...ights/249388/#

  25. #25
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    And the terrorists have won. If a primary purpose of terrorism is to induce fear, and Americans are willing to give up their most precious freedoms in the name of fighting terrorism, how is this anything less than a monumental victory for our enemies?

    Most who support this new power for the federal government — and especially Graham — also agree that what we call the “war on terror” is a war that will last forever. In this light, this new legislation poses a particular danger, or as Sen. Paul explains: “During war, there has always been a struggle to preserve cons utional liberties. During the Civil War, the right of habeas corpus was suspended … Fortunately, those actions were reversed after the war.”


    Paul then notes:
    The discussion now to suspend certain rights to due process is especially worrisome, given that we are engaged in a war that appears to have no end. Rights given up now cannot be expected to be returned. So we do well to contemplate the diminishment of due process, knowing that the rights we lose now may never be restored.

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