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SequSpurs is vertically challenged!
Much as I hate to say it, Marc Cuban had some intelligent things to say about the new CBA. He was asked about not fighting to re-sign Chandler and Butler, and his response begain with this:
The reality is that in the new system, cap room will have far more value than it had in the past. I realize that everyone is all freaked out about how and where free agents and future free agents are going, but it’s not just about getting one guy. We are not saving cap room in hope of that one super special free agent being there. It’s about being in the position to improve every year and possibly add some significant, younger players next year and in future years. (The whole article is here: http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.c...g-free-agency/
And if that wasn't sobering enough, I ran across this old article from last year, about re-signing Richard Jefferson: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/bal...urn=nba-257651
I know everybody here instinctively knows all of that. But when you put the two articles together, and look at them at the same time, it's difficult to come to more than one conclusion. As long as the Spurs are saddled with Jefferson and his contract, they have virtually zero chance of picking up a "special" free agent. One who is enough better than the crowd to actually make a significant impact. So unless they follow through with amnesty of Jefferson, they're saddled with him for three more years. And nobody - not even the most committed of the Spurs Faithful, believes that the window will be open even a crack four years from now.
But isn't using the amnesty provision on Jefferson tantamount to blowing this team up? If Tim retires, it's officially blown up next year anyway. And even if he doesn't, wasn't this season supposed to be the last, best opportunity to get Timmy one more ring? I think what the Spurs' management has finally come to terms with is the fact that the little bit of cap room that an amnestied Jefferson clears up won't be enough to bring in an impact player who can put this team over the top one last time.
Sure Duncan may re-up for a lot less money next season. But can you really afford to ignore the fact that next year's draft promises to be exceptionally strong? Or the historical value of Top 10 picks vs., say, the 23rd pick? (Which is probably about what the Spurs can aspire to.) Can anyone ignore the possibility of getting a Lucky Ping-Pong Ball to come and play alongside Duncan for those last couple of years? Or the parallel to Number 50's last few seasons?
If you consider yourself a true member of the Spurs Faithful, and you really, really want to see Duncan get one for his thumb before he retires - answer this question honestly: Which way do you think is most likely to get that fifth ring? By acquiring a $5 Million player this season... or by getting a lottery pick to play in tandem with him next year? Bonus question: Do you really want to see Tim play out his last couple of seasons with no help but a pair of 23rd picks, and a couple of middling free agents?
Trying to parlay the amnesty of Richard Jefferson is almost certainly fool's gold. Too little, too late. There's no point in arguing about what might have been done last year, or the years before that. Given the situation today, the best - the only way, to avoid destroying this team might be blow it up sooner rather than later.
SequSpurs is vertically challenged!
Amnestying Jefferson doesn't create a cent of cap room.
no, Spurs don't blow it up ... lets wait until Duncan retires
Actually, I take it back. If Butler's contract wasn't guaranteed, cutting him today and cutting Dice and would get the Spurs just barely under the luxury tax level and allow them to use the full MLE.
Yep. It's been discussed so much, I just sort of short-handed it. Shouldn't have said "cap". Just talking about how much they would be able to spend, and what they could honestly get for that much.
I've come around to the anti-blow-up camp, whereas before I was fairly neutral.
Blowing up the team would mean junking the players that are enjoyable to watch and probably being forced to watch junk like Bonner. Jefferson might not be amnestied in a blow up scenario because his salary would be used to get the team to the floor.
So a blown up Spurs team might as well be 82 games of Bonner and Jefferson lollygagging on the court for 35 minutes a game next year with whatever expiring uninspired players they'd get back for the big 3. Give me a futile attempt at a ring before that anyday.
No, I'm am and will always be a "true member of the Spurs Faithful". Because of what the big 3 have done for this team, and the fact that they still are very good players, I don't want to see the team blown up. Although a 5th ring is highly unlikely, I'm okay with letting TD, TP, and MG, play out the string. When they do blow it up, so be it, but because TD still can be a force, albeit not like earlier in his career, he deserves to walk away on his own terms.
Nope.
I think you just dance with the ones what brought you here. We'll decline inexorably until Duncan retires in the next couple or three years. But no blowing up. Don't think it's even on the table.
Is RJ tradeable at all? I assume he has about 1% trade value and no team would be interested if they can't amnesty him?
So either the Spurs keep him for the whole season and amnesty him before the start of next season or do it now.
What do you guys think the Spurs are doing? Were they waiting to see if they could replace him before amnestying him, and if they couldn't replace him they were going to keep him? Is that what is going down right now you think?
I understand the arguments against it. The Richard Jefferson article just put it in perspective for me, personally. Some mistakes are so bad, so egregious, that there isn't any good way to repair the damage. I think the Jefferson re-signing was just that bad. Dump the lemons and buy some Country Time lemonade mix, and move on.
When you see the top 7-8 players that get drafted next year, you might second guess youself. If the Spurs could trade one of Tony/Manu and some combination of Blair and/or Splitter now, they could still have enough of a core left to pair with Duncan, the Lottery Pick, and the huge cap space they will have. (They would still have Neal, Anderson, and Leonard who will all have another year under their belts.)
If the Spurs got a reasonably good player this year (in the Tony or Manu trade) and a role player plus a second bite out of the next draft (in the Blair and/or Splitter deal), PLUS whoever they could acquire with their 2012 cap space, they could be pretty damned re-built by the next training camp.
This half-life of not rebuilding, and not going into the Lux Tax to buy a team is a long, slow form of suicide.
Just saying.
We're simply not going to do Tim Duncan like that. End of discussion. It is that simple.
The only way the Spurs would probably do it is if Tim asks for a trade.
Tim is only interested in winning, I seriously doubt he's interested in playing on a lottery team for any amount of time.
Exactly what I've been saying. All it does is save Holt some money. They get at most 5mil to spend. Not going to get an impact player with that money.
Unless they could have turned Jefferson's contract into a big man it was the best option they had at the time. Now you can blame them for not getting him at a lower price.
Any David Robinson's or Tim Duncan's in 2012 draft? If not I think it makes sense to see if they can use their continuity and chemistry to an advantage this season. Also focusing on defense and integrating the younger players will help. I can't wait to see Pop go back to being a defense first coach. Combine that with the offense from last year and I think the Spurs might have enough to contend.
LOL - Don't ask a Spurs fan if there's another Robinson or Duncan out there.
The chances of another sure-fire big man waiting until after graduation to enter the draft become slimmer all the time. And if you were judging Duncan after his freshman or sop re years, you wouldn't know that he was going to be the best ever at his position. I'm not suggesting another Duncan in this draft - that would be stupid. But there are a bunch of really good-looking bigs likely to declare. A couple of them, at least, are going to start somewhere as rookies and average close to doubles. Hard to say how special any of them might be after 1-2 years in college. But the guy we've wanted beside Duncan for years? This draft will have at least a couple of them.
And Harrison Barnes is going to start at SF as a rookie, unless he goes to a team that already has a top tier player. (greedy bas s) If the Spurs could finally buy a big with their 2012 cap money, they would have the elusive long 3 to go with him. And if they had either Tony or Manu left? Plus whoever they got for trading one leg of the Big 3? Like I said - they would be a long way toward being re-built. And more of a contender than they'll be this year.
BTW - Jefferson was NOT the best they could have done for 4 years and $38 million. It's not just a question of whether he was ever a fit for this team. That contract was just inexplicable. Read the article I linked to in the first post. It's just hard to disagree with.
Last edited by GSH; 12-14-2011 at 05:50 AM.
Jefferson's re-scheduled contract saved the Spurs a whole lot of tax money.
On topic, who would you imagine Manu and Tony to be traded for?
I'm still holding out hope for some move before the trade deadline that brings a strong defender who is at least 6'9"... outside of that, the prospect of Anderson and Leonard both exceeding expectations and Splitter being effective enough to play 25-30 mpg is about the best I can imagine happening. That and the big 3 being healthy. This still is, afterall, the same team that had a better regular season record than Dallas, Miami, L.A., and OKC last year. The bartering chips are minimal-- the expiring/retiring contract of Dice, amnesty for Jefferson, and some combination of Bonner, Blair, or Splitter... but they at least owe it to Duncan to give it one more try.
As of now, looks taht our 15 men roster would be :
Parker - Anderson - Jefferson - x - Duncan
Ford - Ginobili - Leonard - Bonner - Splitter
(Joseph) - Neal - Green - x - Blair
We still have two x to fill and at least one, possibly, with a starting caliber player on the front line.
Mission very difficult in these times...considering our options fotr free agency are limited to the exceptions (and the best one available at our price are already going to other teams...see Mc Roberts with LA).
Names of bigs still available and little thoughts about them :
F. Elson (my favourite : corporate knowledge), Przybilla (coming from serious injury), Dalembert (out of our price range, but difficult to find suitors : probably will end up signing with his old team), T. Murphy (didn't play a lot, maybe 'cause of injuries, last year : bad defender but good rebounder and outside shooter), Etan Thomas (still alive ?), Al Thornton (good athlete but low basketball I.Q.), Solomon Jones (athletic but little else), Brian Cook (outside shoot but little else), G. Smith (good inside scorer, but little else), J. Smith (very old), ratliff (coroporate knowledge but older than Smith), haddadi (long, good rebounder, but probably too much slow), Powe (no clue how he his post injury, for sure not higher), Dampier (old and slow but decent defender), Humphries (more than decent but totally out of our price range), Llunga Mbenga (good defender but quite no offensive game), Landry (more than decent but imho too little for what we need), Jason Smith (good skills but has one good game every four), Malik Allen (good outside shoot and little else), E. Clark (worth attention...but probably already in the planes of someone that can offer more than us), Ajinca (questions about if he could became a good player...at the moment he's not), Novak )(corporate knowledge, good outside shoot but not enough defense and rebounds for a pf), R. Evans (my second favourite for a try : decent defender and very good rebounder, but no offensive game at all), Fesenko (long, big and strong like a bear, but little else), J. Wright (probably more a sf than a big).
It's becoming increasingly clear that the time to amnesty RJ is next offseason, if ever. Nearly all of the veteran SF FAs are off the board, and there are hardly any players worth using a full MLE on.
BTW, amnestying RJ now does get the Spurs under the tax by enough to use the full MLE.
Next offseason, if the Spurs amnesty RJ, their cap situation would be:
That's about $17.4M under the projected cap of $58M (this year's cap, and likely to be next year's too). Duncan's decision on whether to retire or how much money to take if he doesn't will swing things. If Duncan wants the max for 2 years, I'd say give it to him, he's more than earned it. It would hamstring the team's ability to improve, though.Code:Ginobili 14,107,492 Parker 12,500,000 Splitter 3,944,000 Bonner 3,680,000 Leonard 1,861,920 Anderson 1,526,499 Joseph 1,105,560 Blair 1,054,000 Neal 854,389 ----------------------- TOTAL 40,633,860
Let's say Duncan takes $9M, and the Spurs get the 23rd pick in the draft, signed for $1.2M. This leaves about $7.2M for free agents (whoever is signed will take the 12th roster spot and eliminate that roster hold), enough to beat an MLE offer and perhaps acquire a rotation-level big.
Then, with the new CBA, teams with cap room get a 2-year $2.5M "MLE" to use even after they use their cap room. This could be used to bring over Lorbek or Richards.
listen to me you....the spurs are going to be good this year. It no coincidence Kawhi first pro game is after christmas...he is Jesus
Actually Duncan was viewed as an elite prospect, sure fire #1 overall pick following his sop re year.
Now, you never know that any prospect will be the "best ever" at their position, but Tim didn't do much for his draft stock by coming back for his last two seasons.
LOL WHAT?!?He GOT paid when he deserved it...he doesn't deserve now regardless of what he's done for you. Resigning Duncan for any amount of money even the vet min=mediocrity until he retires for the Spurs. You need to suck bad to be relevant again sometime. Get that in your head.
You guys have completely lost it. Listen to me now...Do not resign Duncan under any cir stances. Amnesty RJ and trade Manu an TP for pics. Then tank like mad for 2 seasons. You're a small market team. You will NEVER get a superstar FA. You have to draft those kind of players. I know it's hard to suck for a couple of years but you will at least have hope watching young studs after tanking 2 seasons. This is the ONLY way for you to become relevant again in 5 or 6 years. Unless of course you want those 7-10th seed seasons and first round exits...
Put down your homer glasses and you'll see it's the only way.
You guys have completely lost it. Listen to me now...Do not resign Duncan under any cir stances. Amnesty RJ and trade Manu an TP for pics. Then tank like mad for 2 seasons. You're a small market team. You will NEVER get a superstar FA. You have to draft those kind of players. I know it's hard to suck for a couple of years but you will at least have hope watching young studs after tanking 2 seasons. This is the ONLY way for you to become relevant again in 5 or 6 years. Unless of course you want those 7-10th seed seasons and first round exits...
Put down your homer glasses and you'll see it's the only way.please make it stopppppppp
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